Comments on: The Bizarre Politics of Speaking English Overseas http://matadorabroad.com/the-bizarre-politics-of-speaking-english-overseas/ study abroad programs Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:14:48 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Radhika http://matadorabroad.com/the-bizarre-politics-of-speaking-english-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-5881 Radhika Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:31:25 +0000 http://matadorabroad.com/?p=2093#comment-5881 Vernon: To an extent, I agree with you. However, not everyone is going to speak perfect Portuguese in Portugal or Brazil (where are you from?) if they don't know it. I don't expect foreigners to speak perfect English in the U.S., but if someone is going to live and work in the U.S., I do feel that they should speak English. However, if someone is a tourist, it is unfair to assume that they will know the language perfectly. However, they should at least learn a few phrases and useful words before going to that country. Vernon: To an extent, I agree with you. However, not everyone is going to speak perfect Portuguese in Portugal or Brazil (where are you from?) if they don’t know it. I don’t expect foreigners to speak perfect English in the U.S., but if someone is going to live and work in the U.S., I do feel that they should speak English. However, if someone is a tourist, it is unfair to assume that they will know the language perfectly. However, they should at least learn a few phrases and useful words before going to that country.

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]]> By: Vernon http://matadorabroad.com/the-bizarre-politics-of-speaking-english-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-5802 Vernon Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:38:59 +0000 http://matadorabroad.com/?p=2093#comment-5802 Why on earth do I have to speak in English in my country? If somebody comes to my country they should communicate in Portuguese. Moreover, when were the world language elections? I cannot recall! Why on earth do I have to speak in English in my country?
If somebody comes to my country they should communicate in Portuguese.
Moreover, when were the world language elections? I cannot recall!

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]]> By: Radhika http://matadorabroad.com/the-bizarre-politics-of-speaking-english-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-5355 Radhika Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:09:52 +0000 http://matadorabroad.com/?p=2093#comment-5355 Wow, maybe it's just because I grew up in a multilingual family, but as long as you can get your point across, speaking the language perfectly isn't a huge deal. There are many, many parts of the world where English comes just as naturally to the locals as the local language. India is one of those places. My mother started learning English at a very young age, and she has spoken it fluently since she was a preteen. My father didn't learn English until he was in his late teens, but he speaks it pretty damn well, too. There's a reason they emigrated to the United States: so I could have the opportunities that a middle-class person in an English-speaking, developed country would have. Before the "multicultural" travelers jump on my ass and call me a philistine, I plan on studying languages, am fluent in Spanish, and have an intermediate level of Hindi. I also speak some Tamil, which is rudimentary at best. My level of Tamil is much, much lower than my grandmother's, and my English is much better than hers, but we get each other and communicate relatively well. Languages are not solid, simple things. They are fluid, and it is extremely common to switch back and forth between languages for millions of people around the world, and I can guarantee you that if any of you tried to speak Hindi with an Indian in Mumbai, they would automatically switch to English. Is it because they're trying to rip you off or "use" you for English practice? Of course not. English has been spoken in many parts of the world for hundreds of years, and many people speak it with the same grace and emotion as they do their native languages, maybe better. If an auto-wallah can communicate his prices to me or if a woman on the street can give me directions in English better than I can in Hindi, then I'll take them graciously. Granted, there are many areas of India where English isn't spoken, but if you're in a city, chances are, someone nearby will speak English. Trust me, no one in India will resent you for speaking English. English is a worldwide language that represents upward mobility and a good, well-paying job in most parts of the world. People are going to learn and practice it. It is a <i>privilege</i> to know English, not a burden. That's why they want to speak it. The fact is, people who speak English are more likely to have jobs, be well-educated, and live more prosperous lives. Does that mean we should never learn new languages? Of course not! But keep it in mind when someone in a foreign country tries to speak broken English with you. You are in a far more privileged position than they may ever be. Again, I'm going to be shot for saying this, but all this talk of "cultural preservation" coming from a bunch of foreign backpackers sounds a little selfish and disingenuous. "Here's a little corner of the world that I want all for myself so I can show everyone back home how 'cultured' I am!" I think us darkies can preserve our cultures without your help, thankyouverymuch. OK, I'm done with my little spiel. Wow, maybe it’s just because I grew up in a multilingual family, but as long as you can get your point across, speaking the language perfectly isn’t a huge deal. There are many, many parts of the world where English comes just as naturally to the locals as the local language. India is one of those places. My mother started learning English at a very young age, and she has spoken it fluently since she was a preteen. My father didn’t learn English until he was in his late teens, but he speaks it pretty damn well, too. There’s a reason they emigrated to the United States: so I could have the opportunities that a middle-class person in an English-speaking, developed country would have.

Before the “multicultural” travelers jump on my ass and call me a philistine, I plan on studying languages, am fluent in Spanish, and have an intermediate level of Hindi. I also speak some Tamil, which is rudimentary at best. My level of Tamil is much, much lower than my grandmother’s, and my English is much better than hers, but we get each other and communicate relatively well.

Languages are not solid, simple things. They are fluid, and it is extremely common to switch back and forth between languages for millions of people around the world, and I can guarantee you that if any of you tried to speak Hindi with an Indian in Mumbai, they would automatically switch to English. Is it because they’re trying to rip you off or “use” you for English practice? Of course not.

English has been spoken in many parts of the world for hundreds of years, and many people speak it with the same grace and emotion as they do their native languages, maybe better. If an auto-wallah can communicate his prices to me or if a woman on the street can give me directions in English better than I can in Hindi, then I’ll take them graciously. Granted, there are many areas of India where English isn’t spoken, but if you’re in a city, chances are, someone nearby will speak English. Trust me, no one in India will resent you for speaking English.

English is a worldwide language that represents upward mobility and a good, well-paying job in most parts of the world. People are going to learn and practice it. It is a privilege to know English, not a burden. That’s why they want to speak it. The fact is, people who speak English are more likely to have jobs, be well-educated, and live more prosperous lives. Does that mean we should never learn new languages? Of course not! But keep it in mind when someone in a foreign country tries to speak broken English with you. You are in a far more privileged position than they may ever be.

Again, I’m going to be shot for saying this, but all this talk of “cultural preservation” coming from a bunch of foreign backpackers sounds a little selfish and disingenuous. “Here’s a little corner of the world that I want all for myself so I can show everyone back home how ‘cultured’ I am!” I think us darkies can preserve our cultures without your help, thankyouverymuch.

OK, I’m done with my little spiel.

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]]> By: Best of the Web – Roaming Tales: Travel links for 14 September | Standby London Air Flights http://matadorabroad.com/the-bizarre-politics-of-speaking-english-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-4198 Best of the Web – Roaming Tales: Travel links for 14 September | Standby London Air Flights Sat, 26 Sep 2009 22:21:35 +0000 http://matadorabroad.com/?p=2093#comment-4198 [...] Sarah Menkedick courted controversy in this column on speaking English abroad for [...] [...] Sarah Menkedick courted controversy in this column on speaking English abroad for [...]

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]]> By: Rebel http://matadorabroad.com/the-bizarre-politics-of-speaking-english-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-4090 Rebel Tue, 15 Sep 2009 18:02:00 +0000 http://matadorabroad.com/?p=2093#comment-4090 Yeah, there seems to be an unnecessary amount of venom in some of these comments. But I don't totally agree with the article either. Different people cope with living abroad / traveling abroad in different ways. Some folks go the total-immersion route and completely avoid doing anything 'non-local'... and philosophically I have no problem with that. In reality though, it's unrealistic, and when taken to extremes - selfish. Because to me, the primary function of a language is for communication. So yeah, if I'm trying to learn a grammatical structure I will go around telling everyone I chat with "I have two older sisters but I don't have a brother." because it's a step on the way to communicating something like "I have my passport but I don't have a visa". And I will use as much Thai as I can in the market. But when it comes to doing something like a money transfer at a bank where the teller speaks better English than I do Thai - you can bet I'm going to revert to English because that is the language that will allow the clearest communication between us. And aaahhhh.... clear communication, surprising how difficult it can be even between people who speak the same language. ;) And I practice my Thai with plenty of people, both native Thai speakers and native English speakers, as well as friends from Japan, or the Philippines. I practice Thai with other non-native Thai speakers because we *can* help each other. Of course it's not the same as practicing with a local... but it has it's place... ESPECIALLY because the person who's more advanced can explain a bit of vocabulary or grammar in English so that I can understand it. A two sentence English explanation can be worth two weeks of trial and error with locals. Yeah, there seems to be an unnecessary amount of venom in some of these comments. But I don’t totally agree with the article either.

Different people cope with living abroad / traveling abroad in different ways. Some folks go the total-immersion route and completely avoid doing anything ‘non-local’… and philosophically I have no problem with that. In reality though, it’s unrealistic, and when taken to extremes – selfish.

Because to me, the primary function of a language is for communication. So yeah, if I’m trying to learn a grammatical structure I will go around telling everyone I chat with “I have two older sisters but I don’t have a brother.” because it’s a step on the way to communicating something like “I have my passport but I don’t have a visa”. And I will use as much Thai as I can in the market. But when it comes to doing something like a money transfer at a bank where the teller speaks better English than I do Thai – you can bet I’m going to revert to English because that is the language that will allow the clearest communication between us.

And aaahhhh…. clear communication, surprising how difficult it can be even between people who speak the same language. ;)

And I practice my Thai with plenty of people, both native Thai speakers and native English speakers, as well as friends from Japan, or the Philippines. I practice Thai with other non-native Thai speakers because we *can* help each other. Of course it’s not the same as practicing with a local… but it has it’s place… ESPECIALLY because the person who’s more advanced can explain a bit of vocabulary or grammar in English so that I can understand it. A two sentence English explanation can be worth two weeks of trial and error with locals.

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]]> By: Best of the Web – Roaming Tales: Travel links for 14 September | Roaming Tales http://matadorabroad.com/the-bizarre-politics-of-speaking-english-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-4084 Best of the Web – Roaming Tales: Travel links for 14 September | Roaming Tales Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:01:54 +0000 http://matadorabroad.com/?p=2093#comment-4084 [...] Sarah Menkedick courted controversy in this column on speaking English abroad for [...] [...] Sarah Menkedick courted controversy in this column on speaking English abroad for [...]

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]]> By: Eva http://matadorabroad.com/the-bizarre-politics-of-speaking-english-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-4072 Eva Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:10:01 +0000 http://matadorabroad.com/?p=2093#comment-4072 Benny - I can't actually believe you are the one calling Sarah a bully. From your first comment, you have offered nothing but anger and insults - and yes, you apologized initially but then went right back at it again. You have also repeatedly wished that her article - her opinion - had never been published at all. (You can say you're not advocating censorship, but regretting that someone's words ever saw the light of day is pretty darn close.) You may have found Sarah's piece offensive in a big-picture sense, but nowhere in it did she call out and insult or question the character of any given individual, so don't tell me she started it. She has been remarkably restrained in her comments, too, despite being called names and smeared as a terrible person throughout. Matador is a close-knit community, and it requires mutual respect to function. What I love most about it is the exchange of ideas, which yes, can get heated but generally remains respectful. Unfortunately, on this thread you seem to be incapable of disagreeing with someone without hurling insults. You are the bully here. It's a shame that you can't recognize that. I hope you give it some thought. In the meantime, I am done arguing with you. Benny – I can’t actually believe you are the one calling Sarah a bully. From your first comment, you have offered nothing but anger and insults – and yes, you apologized initially but then went right back at it again. You have also repeatedly wished that her article – her opinion – had never been published at all. (You can say you’re not advocating censorship, but regretting that someone’s words ever saw the light of day is pretty darn close.) You may have found Sarah’s piece offensive in a big-picture sense, but nowhere in it did she call out and insult or question the character of any given individual, so don’t tell me she started it. She has been remarkably restrained in her comments, too, despite being called names and smeared as a terrible person throughout.

Matador is a close-knit community, and it requires mutual respect to function. What I love most about it is the exchange of ideas, which yes, can get heated but generally remains respectful. Unfortunately, on this thread you seem to be incapable of disagreeing with someone without hurling insults. You are the bully here. It’s a shame that you can’t recognize that. I hope you give it some thought. In the meantime, I am done arguing with you.

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]]> By: Benny the Irish polyglot http://matadorabroad.com/the-bizarre-politics-of-speaking-english-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-4068 Benny the Irish polyglot Mon, 14 Sep 2009 17:57:56 +0000 http://matadorabroad.com/?p=2093#comment-4068 >>To add insult to injury Benny’s further response is that “I asked for it.” Your article is a controversial opinion that has clearly sparked anger. What else did you expect? The whole world to agree with you? >>It’s degenerated into mere angry ranting. It STARTED as angry ranting. That's all your article is. >> Benny keeps coming back demanding I explain why I insist “forcing English” on people. People don't want to speak English with you and you make them. Which part of forcing am I not getting? >>Anyway, this debate doesn’t seem to be going anywhere and I’m tired Agreed. All I want is you to show a little empathy for the other point of view and despite me trying to find a middle ground, agreeing with you on several points, you have never budged to even acknowledge why you may be making people angry. This was never a discussion because you never actually gave a little lay-way to the other point of view. >> the accusation that my article is about “forcing English” upon poor, innocent language students. That is, once again, condescending. I consider you a bully Sarah, as all bullies consider their victims to be overly-sensitive. You never saw that or understood why I said that. You think you are helping people, and that is admirable. But the looks should surely tell you that you are not. I desperately wish you could see this. >>It seems we all think language study is a good thing, and have different ways of dealing with situations in which we’re juggling multiple languages with fellow native English speakers. I also agree with this, but apart from vague comments like this you never show any respect to intensive learners in your follow-up comments. What I wanted in the last comments was for you to put yourself in the other person's shoes and say that there is maybe the *slightest* chance that they are right to speak Spanish in Mexico with everyone, even if it is frustrating for you. You aren't going to do this, so at the end of the day all we can do is agree to disagree. >>To add insult to injury Benny’s further response is that “I asked for it.”
Your article is a controversial opinion that has clearly sparked anger. What else did you expect? The whole world to agree with you?

>>It’s degenerated into mere angry ranting.
It STARTED as angry ranting. That’s all your article is.

>> Benny keeps coming back demanding I explain why I insist “forcing English” on people.
People don’t want to speak English with you and you make them. Which part of forcing am I not getting?

>>Anyway, this debate doesn’t seem to be going anywhere and I’m tired
Agreed. All I want is you to show a little empathy for the other point of view and despite me trying to find a middle ground, agreeing with you on several points, you have never budged to even acknowledge why you may be making people angry. This was never a discussion because you never actually gave a little lay-way to the other point of view.

>> the accusation that my article is about “forcing English” upon poor, innocent language students.
That is, once again, condescending. I consider you a bully Sarah, as all bullies consider their victims to be overly-sensitive. You never saw that or understood why I said that. You think you are helping people, and that is admirable. But the looks should surely tell you that you are not. I desperately wish you could see this.

>>It seems we all think language study is a good thing, and have different ways of dealing with situations in which we’re juggling multiple languages with fellow native English speakers.
I also agree with this, but apart from vague comments like this you never show any respect to intensive learners in your follow-up comments.
What I wanted in the last comments was for you to put yourself in the other person’s shoes and say that there is maybe the *slightest* chance that they are right to speak Spanish in Mexico with everyone, even if it is frustrating for you. You aren’t going to do this, so at the end of the day all we can do is agree to disagree.

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]]> By: Ekaterina http://matadorabroad.com/the-bizarre-politics-of-speaking-english-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-4067 Ekaterina Mon, 14 Sep 2009 17:45:17 +0000 http://matadorabroad.com/?p=2093#comment-4067 Sarah, I am sorry, - but where did i call you all the names you mention in your reply? I spoke of arrogance, yes, but didn't say that you were arrogant. I also apologise if you understood that I was accusing you of adding things to the article, - I was talking about comments, but I can understand that from how I put it, - it was indeed a serious allegation. Also, I am sorry for my last harsh comment. But I do think that people might interpret articles in a different way. You should be in fact glad that your article provoked so many responses. I already sent it to several friends to see what they think. Yes, I was angry when I first read it, - but you indeed clarified the points. Sarah,
I am sorry, – but where did i call you all the names you mention in your reply?
I spoke of arrogance, yes, but didn’t say that you were arrogant.
I also apologise if you understood that I was accusing you of adding things to the article, – I was talking about comments, but I can understand that from how I put it, – it was indeed a serious allegation.
Also, I am sorry for my last harsh comment. But I do think that people might interpret articles in a different way.
You should be in fact glad that your article provoked so many responses. I already sent it to several friends to see what they think.
Yes, I was angry when I first read it, – but you indeed clarified the points.

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]]> By: amore dewitt http://matadorabroad.com/the-bizarre-politics-of-speaking-english-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-4065 amore dewitt Mon, 14 Sep 2009 17:39:29 +0000 http://matadorabroad.com/?p=2093#comment-4065 Dear all, I found the article very interesting as well as most of the comments. Probably, later on, I will write a longer comment on language perception, learning and communication. What I would like to point out now is that there is some arrogance in certain replies, which should be avoided, as well as some 'common points', which are often wrong. Being mathematician, I tell you that I with enormous pleasure explained, explain, will and would explain and discuss mathematics whenever and wherever being asked (bars, restaurants, markets, drinking wine, day and night). Therefore, avoid generalisations, please. Amore Dear all,
I found the article very interesting as well as most of the comments.

Probably, later on, I will write a longer comment on language perception, learning and communication.

What I would like to point out now is that there is some arrogance in certain replies, which should be avoided, as well as some ‘common points’, which are often wrong.

Being mathematician, I tell you that I with enormous pleasure explained, explain, will and would explain and discuss mathematics whenever and wherever being asked (bars, restaurants, markets, drinking wine, day and night).

Therefore, avoid generalisations, please.

Amore

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