Feature Photo: db*photography Photo: jakeliefer
Ever gotten caught up in a confusing bilingual convo and come out feeling frustrated?
The other morning I went to the market with the dog to buy some avocados.
There was a foreign woman buying veggies from the same stall. She cast a few glances at the dog, a big female German Shepherd, and asked,
“Amable?”
“Yes, she’s very nice, you can say hello to her,” I replied in Spanish.
The woman bent over and greeted my Stella, who responded with kisses and happy grunts and a near belly-flop. When she stood back up, I said to her in English,
“Have you tried huitlacoche?”
Then I got the look.
It’s the “why are you speaking to me in English” glare of wounded pride and condescension. The woman responded with something along the lines of “what how is?”
Photo: dionhinchcliffe
I tried to explain in Spanish about the concept of mushroom corn fungus and how to cook it, but that wasn’t going so well, so I took a risky political line and jumped back to English. The explanation got through then, but the woman was obviously insulted and we parted ways without either of us sharing any goodbyes or further info.
This got me to thinking about the politics of English overseas. Why, I wonder, are foreigners so often insulted when other foreigners speak to them in English? I’ve never understood the purpose of having a tedious conversation that one or both parties only half-understand when they both speak English and could glide on by just fine in that language.
I took a controversial stance on this in France, when I was studying abroad and it was all the rage to speak nothing but French all the time, even with a fellow group of Americans whose French sounded, at best, like a heavily accented Wisconsinte reading sentences by rote out of a grammar book and, at worst, like garbled, frustrated baby talk.
What are you learning in that encounter? I argued. How to mimic each others’ painfully flat American accents?
We’re practicing our French, they’d reply, with the same haughty and irritated look the market woman shot me.
And I’d contest, Do you really think it’s helping your French to talk about how many brothers and sisters you have with other American French students?
But still, I’d often find myself in situations in which I overheard several Americans having a brutally basic and torturous conversation like the following:
“What’s your favorite color?”
“I like blue. And you?”
“I like yellow. Yes, yellow. Yellow is be nice.”
I thought this was just the bane of overly eager study abroad students. But I’ve discovered that it’s a widespread traveler phenomena. Especially in Mexico, American tourists will get irritated if I speak to them in English, even if it’s to clarify something they don’t understand.
Once, I went to go grab a beer with a traveler who spoke basic to intermediate Spanish. There were plenty of things I wanted to talk about–Mexican politics, her perceptions and experiences, who she’d met…but she insisted from the beginning on talking solely in Spanish, and half the conversation was spent on waiting until three word sentences about what she liked and didn’t like came together.
There’s nothing wrong with speaking in Spanish or French or the local language, and certainly nothing wrong with squeezing in as much practice as possible when studying a language. And with native speakers, for sure, give all your energy to muscling up those language skills.
But what I find bizarre is the insistence of certain travelers on speaking a second language with a fellow native English speaker when the said travelers obviously don’t speak that second language well enough to hold a decent conversation or to understand their partner.
If you speak fluently or well enough to move beyond describing when you brush your teeth and what you’re doing tomorrow, great. But if you don’t, then in my opinion it’s waste of time.
Photo: William A. Franklin
Particularly if you’re passing up the opportunity to learn something or to get a useful explanation — like, for example, the other day in the coffee shop when a woman became increasingly irritated that they didn’t have eggs, and I tried to explain in English that they did have eggs but they were on another menu, and she insisted on switching back to Spanish only to get more frustrated. Why?
So I’ll draw up my Rules for the Use of English Vs. the Local Language When Speaking with Native English Speakers (RUEVLLWSNES-catchy, right?)
1. If you do not speak at the same level as your conversational partner, be aware of this when insisting on speaking in the local language.
2. If you do not understand what your partner is saying, it might be time to throw in the towel.
3. At parties or meetings or other social events where native speakers of the local language are present, by all means speak only the local language, even with other English speakers. But if it’s just you and someone who shares your native tongue, and your level is not high enough to have a worthwhile conversation, then scrap language practice time.
4. Keep in mind that for expats, speaking the local language isn’t exactly the most stimulating experience ever.
And that’s all for today, folks, from the land of rant. I’d be interested to hear your experiences on this front–are you one of these English-leery people? Why? Are you a practice-my-French-with-American-friends kind of gal/guy or does this make your skin crawl? Why? Does it drive you nuts when you try and explain something in Chinese or Italian to a tourist who obviously does not understand?
Fly on the wings of rant, travelers. Sound off below.
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77 Comments... join the discussion!
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Sarah, I can completely understand.
Being a beginner Chinese speaker I want nothing more than to practice speaking Chinese but find my learning is greatly reduced by the frustrations of language limitations. It is easier to convey a concept in a shared language and then use it as a practicing tool by asking how to convey the same message in the local language.
Only by realising our limitations can we find ways to overcome them.
Great discussion point!
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This post shows exactly the problem that people have with English speakers and the narrow-mindedness associated with them.
“There’s nothing wrong with speaking in Spanish or French or the local language…” Are you crazy?? It’s not that there’s “nothing wrong” with speaking the local language, you simple SHOULD SPEAK IT. And apologise a lot if you are too lazy to try, which you clearly are.
English is NOT that great a language. It sounds ugly to many locals and it represents a lot of bad blood for some cultures. Most important of all… YOU are in the other country, YOU are the one who should be learning the other language!! Those of us trying to integrate into a culture want to feel as much like the locals as possible and bigots like you force us back to some foreign land speaking a language that we clearly DO NOT WANT TO SPEAK. Haven’t you got that yet? These people are TRYING; they are trying to hard that they will even speak the language they are so passionate about when they don’t have to. They should be applauded for their efforts; it’s a lot of hard work and you crush people’s confidence when you start yapping at them in a language they travelled thousands of kilometres to avoid.
I find your “rules” highly offensive. You belittle the huge amount of work that we learners put into it. If you don’t understand someone, then TRY HARDER. You are encouraging people to give up on a beautiful mission of truly expanding their cultural horizons.
The only way to really learn a language quickly is to stop speaking English entirely. This may mean that you have to go through a few months of not being able to communicate fully. This is a sacrifice that we have decided to make for the greater good of later being able to have deep and meaningful conversations with locals. I have done this several times, and it’s been hard each time, but the benefits of sticking with my goals have been wonderful. Speaking English half the time would have slowed me down immensely.
If you happen to run into us at this learning stage, then boo-hoo for you. Please don’t shove your narrow beliefs down our throats. We want to keep up our momentum and your arrogance that we are not able to communicate good enough for you is YOUR problem, not ours.
You may also have to accept that your worship of the English language may mean that they don’t want to speak to you because you are just not the kind of company they want to have. You clearly prefer to speak English; otherwise you would not look at every chance possible to do so and try to break expats eager to actually make something of their travels. Frankly I would speak any language but English with someone like you if it meant you would leave me alone and let me get back to communicating with open-minded people. If you so want to speak English with English speakers so desperately, then GO HOME.
I’m disappointed that Matador has approved an article like this. It’s a big step backwards.↵ -
I’m not native English, and I completely agree with Benny. I have met him in person as well, and although I’m not exactly a beginner in English, and he speaks it natively, alongside his blog posts on fluentin3months we never communicate in English. He doesn’t know my native language (yet?) but still English doesn’t have to be the language chosen for this goal.
Seriously, I like English myself enough to speak it when I need it and to read almost the entire Internet, but it’s neither my native nor my preferred and not even the easiest foreign language I know.
But the most important thing for me is that the language you are idolizing at this moment (I won’t blame you, it’s your native language, you are used to it being working for you practically from birth) is the language of a culture. And it’s your culture, not mine. However americanized the Netherlands can be, we ARE NOT AMERICAN. How many language we can speak (we are known for a good level of English and participate in a lot of international projects using English) we STILL prefer Dutch for a relaxed conversation. Dutch people will switch automatically to English when you hassle up your Dutch, but this is an EXCEPTION, NO RULE. We have to make a considerable effort to speak your language like this, please be so indulgent to at least try to speak another language (and it really doesn’t have to be Dutch, really. Even as a gesture it can help a lot to speak a language other than your native one. I do that with Esperanto for example)
I am impatiently awaiting your reaction, Sarah, being it in a new article, a reaction to this message or a personal email. Any language out of Spanish, French, German, Portuguese, Esperanto and Dutch will do
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Hey lapingvino! Thanks for your insights. I hope my reply is satisfying. I don’t think I’m idolizing English here at all, and I’m certainly not encouraging or forcing people who don’t speak English as their native language to speak it, nor am I foisting American culture on them.
You say: “Dutch people will switch automatically to English when you hassle up your Dutch, but this is an EXCEPTION, NO RULE. We have to make a considerable effort to speak your language like this, please be so indulgent to at least try to speak another language.”
To clarify: My post is entirely about conversations between native English speakers. Nowhere do I claim that it’s the responsibility of people from another culture with another language to try to speak English with me. I always make an attempt to speak the local language when traveling. My point about English wasn’t that it’s superior to other languages or that speakers of other languages should learn it, but rather that sometimes conversations in other languages between two native English speakers, when one has a much higher level than the other, can be irritating. Nowhere do I make the point here that Dutch people or people whose native language is not English should speak English with me!
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Someone said that speaking Dutch to foreigners in the Netherlands is rather an exception than rule?
ha-ha-ha,
I REALLY have to disagree with it!
It took me superhuman efforts to start speaking the language remotedly fluently by the end of 7 years, exactly because Dutch people ALWAYS switch to English when they hear an accent.
I really only learned it, when I started to reply (in Dutch!) that I don’t speak any English.I can understand Sarah. I had this problem when I was studying French in Brussels, and all people who were learning Russian there tried to speak Russian to me, while I was interested only in speaking French. But after a while I just realized that no one can learn the language without learning and practicing it.
The experience of learning Dutch reminded me of my arrogance of earlier days.
On the other hand, considering that I was in Brussels and desparate to learn French, I was not that eager to speak Russian.I think that the main point Sarah tried to make is tht when two people speak one language well (might not be English!) and try to communicate in another language, sometimes it does make sense to switch to the language which both people can understand when explaining something important….I did it myself with all learners of Russians, but it’s true that I had to switch back to Russian if I wanted them to remain friends:)
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Ekaterina-
I think you misunderstood my question about huitlacoche. I wasn’t speaking to a Spanish woman – she was a native English speaker. And I was asking her if she’d tried a certain type of food called huitlacoche–I was actually pointing at it while I said it. I said it in English, and it was obvious I was referring to the food – it’s not like I was trying to pepper my speech with obscure words. I was trying to be friendly–the woman was buying a bunch of herbs at the market and obviously was interested in food and cooking, so I thought I’d point out the main speciality at the market at that moment – huitlacoche. That’s why I was so surprised by her reaction–she insisted on speaking rudimentary Spanish with me and then didn’t understand what I was saying, and then she left in a huff. I simply don’t understand how that’s productive or even very logical. I was trying to be friendly, and I switched to Spanish when she obviously wanted that, but then she couldn’t understand what I was saying. My point here was, that doesn’t seem very productive to me.
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I think this comment is unnecessarily insulting and makes a ton of uninformed assumptions about the author of what was really a lighthearted look at expat/tourist dynamics. I don’t think we need to be hurling words like “bigot” around without any justification – that’s a serious charge in my book that implies a good deal more than a reluctance to speak Spanish to tourists in your spare time. Benny, maybe you could make your points/raise your objections in a slightly more civilized manner?
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Eva, you’re right. My comment is a bit harsh and I apologise to Sarah for the tone of it. I wasn’t striking back at Sarah in particular (in fact, I’ve enjoyed some of her other articles, and you’ll even find that one post she made here on Matador was entirely about me and my Italian video), but I find this general attitude infuriating and extremely counter-productive.
Expressing an opinion is fine, and feel free to all vent about not wanting to speak the local language despite being out in a social gathering in the country it is spoken in. I disagree with that but there is no right or wrong and it’s great that we have sites like this to express varying views on topics.
What DID piss me off here was the use of rules to imply some sort of authority; Matador is obviously a popular site, and I’m worried that someone who is trying hard to speak another language will read this and think that if a big-name site like this says they should give up on trying to consistently practise the language then they should. I’d be very sad and disappointed if this article convinced even one person of that. The tone of the article isn’t venting, but rather advice-like. “Stop trying to learn the language all the time. I don’t care if I am hindering your progress, your pathetic attempts to try are bothering me. Stop thinking of yourself and your language dreams start thinking of poor me and how annoyed I am”
Simply expressing her opinion and frustration is fine, but telling learners do lose their enthusiasm and “throw in the towel” is what bothers me. I wonder if any of you here who agree so much with her have gone through this stage of *actually trying* (i.e. not a week trip but a several month commitment of moving your life to a country specifically to learn its language, perhaps without the boost of having studied it in university and thus not ever needing to go through the learning stage in the real world) and being proud of your progress in a foreign country and having it squashed my someone who is “too tired” to listen to your “feeble” attempts to speak the language. Her dismissal of those learners and encouragement to have you all vent about them requires an equal vent about all of you.
If she is making rules for language learners then maybe I should make some rules for expats who only speak English together not to force me to also. It’s not just about progress in a language. It’s so embarrassing being in a public gathering like a bar when some loud American accent talking to me can be heard piercing through the air and everyone would start looking at me and presuming that I too think that I should spread English. A lot of people don’t appreciate hearing so much English; it’s embarrassing having locals think that I’m one of these expats who refuses to socialise in the local language.
I understand the point of view, but I strongly disagree with the *orders* to tell me and other learners to speak English when we clearly don’t want to.↵ -
Hey Benny,
I think you’ve completely misunderstood this article. First, be careful when you quote pieces of the article out of context. I said “throw in the towel” in a situation in which you are speaking with another native English speaker whose language level is much higher than yours and who you don’t understand. I definitely am NOT saying throw in the towel to language learning in general, or to attempting to understand a language when its extremely difficult. But I do not see the point in practicing a foreign language with another native English speaker when his/her level is much higher than yours and you understand very little. Your conversation will be tedious and very basic, and you could probably understand much more and have a much more interesting conversation in English. (Again, I am referring to conversations BETWEEN NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKERS when one has a much lower level than the other–not conversations between locals and foreigners. Please keep this in mind, as you’ve consistently assumed that I’m talking about language learning in general or speaking in English in general.)
Also, if you pay attention to the circumstances which I site in this article, ALL of them are situations that occur between two native English speakers. I make a point of saying that when talking with speakers of the native language, by all means, practice, and by all means it is far better to attempt to speak that language than to revert to English. If you read any of my other articles on here about language, you’ll see that I am very passionate about language learning. And yes, I agree with you that tourists who loudly and obnoxiously insist on English when speaking with locals are annoying and are missing the opportunity for meaningful cultural interaction. My point here is not at all that speaking English is easy so everyone should do it (I don’t know where you came away with the idea that I’m one of “these people” who forces English down the local’s throats or thinks everyone should speak English–there’s nothing in my article even remotely hinting at that) or that it’s always better to speak English.
If you read the article more calmly and carefully, you’ll see I’m referring uniquely to situations in which two native English speakers are talking together, and one of these speakers has a much lower level than the other. As Hal said, the one with the higher level didn’t sign on to be teacher, and in my case, I’m not saying it’s annoying to me to speak another language (I spend 95% of my life speaking Spanish) but rather that it’s annoying to me to go out for a chat with someone only to end up in a really basic conversation about colors or numbers for two hours.
Which brings me to another point you seem to have missed. If you’ll read my anecdotes from the market and the cafe, you’ll see that the point I’m making is that it is not that useful to try to practice another language with a fellow native English speaker if your level is so low that you cannot understand, and you are actually missing out on useful information by not understanding. In the case of the market, I wanted to point out a really interesting local food to the woman and explain to her how to cook it since she was obviously interested in cooking–but because she insisted on speaking in really basic Spanish, I couldn’t tell her, and she missed out on learning something about Oaxaca.
Now, think this directly contradicts your point about me supposedly advocating the type of travel that is detached from local culture and closed-minded. I think that sometimes not allowing for the possibility that it might be better to use English with other native English speakers actually makes for more closed-minded travel. For example, I could’ve insisted on speaking only Japanese with my close friend in Japan. She’s lived there for 15 years. We could’ve had super-simple conversations about food and our families. Or, we could have a really interesting conversation about her time in Japan, the local culture, the language, how she learned it, and how and where I can learn it, which is what we did. That, to me, is far more useful for getting integrated into Japanese culture and learning Japanese than insisting on speaking basic Japanese with a fellow native English speaker.
Hope that clears things up. Before you go on a rage, please read the article again more carefully.
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Well rebutted, Sarah.
We need a wider comments column.
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+1
(I completely agree)
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This post spoke to me more than any on matador for a while. I have been living abroad in a city quite popular with travelers, expats, and pseudo-bohemian artistes for the last five years. My knowledge of the local language is good enough to get by on a daily basis (my family is from here, though I was born and raised abroad), but it seems that everyone here, both locals and expats, can get very upset when I use English. I get a distinct vibe of disgust from locals when they hear me and a fellow expat friend speaking English together. But trumping even that, are those pretentious expats like “Benny” who think that they can seamlessly integrate themselves into the culture (sorry, but you will NEVER fit in, even if your language is perfect). My partner is a local and his English is infinitely better than my everyday skills at the local language, so the majority of the time we speak English together. The reaction I get from expats and the “Benny”s is shocking. I constantly am faced with accusations of not trying to learn the language, the culture, and generally being a lazy traveller and human being. These accusations are cruel and moreover based on those impossibly unrealistic ideals they read about it books and dream about at night. To fit in, to feel truly part of the local culture, you have to be born and bred in the country, and that is something I have come to understand deeply and simply accept as the way life is.
Visitors and expats to countries should do their best to understand the culture and be an active part of society, but there is absolutely no reason you cannot hold on to your own culture as well. There is no shame in speaking the language of your home-country, whether it be English, French, Tagalog, or Mandarin.
Benny’s post is nothing less than racist. I cannot imagine him telling a Chinese woman in America to “GO HOME” because her English is not up to scratch. Shame on you.↵ -
Hi Sarah. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I can’t tell if you are a native English speaker or not? From my experience it is very difficult to practise other languages as a native English speaker, precisely because so many people in other countries know English. So if you want to master another language, it takes a lot of determination and persistence.
I also think that – especially in the early days of picking up a new language – any practice you can get is useful, because it helps to embed the new sounds and structures into your head.
So while I can understand your frustration, I can also see the other point of view here.
It takes a lot of courage for most people to start speaking in a new language, but it is the only way to learn and so I would always try to encourage someone in this position. Personally I am incredibly grateful to everyone who has had the patience to listen to my stumblings in other languages, because I know I would not have learnt without the opportunities they gave me!
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I think Benny is being a bit too harsh here. I’m American and lived in Germany for four years and since moving to Berlin, I’ve also encountered the American trying to speak German with me and I have to admit it got on my nerves and yes, I have to admit the accent was really painful to hear as well.
Benny, for the same reason that you don’t speak English when you’re abroad, because you don’t want to teach it, I don’t speak German to English-speakers unless there are other Germans in the conversation, because I also am not being paid to teach it. Not only that, but I’d also be a bit afraid of teaching them bad stuff. If they want to learn German from me, they can listen to my podcast at GermanPod101.
I learn languages so I can talk with more people, not so I can teach them… whether that be my native English or my foreign German… or Esperanto for that matter.
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Very much agree with many of your points. If you’re not at the same fluency level, “practice” becomes “pain.” Further, if you’re not friends, then you’re a target for practice; not super cool. I’ve never had another expat speak the foreign tongue to me overseas but I imagine I’d be a bit put off by it, especially if their level was less than my own and they were a stranger.
But I try not to get too upset about it. After all, it pales to the annoyance that occurs when locals insist on speaking to you in broken, terrible English when you’re speaking good Japanese/Spanish/whatever to them.
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Yes. This last point! Drives me crazy in France or Quebec when locals switch to English when they detect my Anglo accent, even if my French is better than their English… Fine if it’s an attempt to practice, but they usually seem to think they’re doing me a favor.
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I absolutely agree with this! Nothing worse than a non-native English speaker insisting on speaking English with me when I speak their language OBVIOUSLY better than they speak English. It boils me to no end! That is when you are persistent and continue replying in their language or just flat out telling them “look I’ve come to live in your country to experience, learn, and live, your language and culture, so please let me continue practicing [insert local language here]“. Then you should probably invite them to visit your country after this so they may be able to practice their English!
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I have to say I agree with what Benny said above, although I myself do not find it strange if foreign people address me on the street in English instead of German.
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This is slightly tangential, but when I lived with a bunch of European exchange students in the UK they’d occasionally descend into a group rant (in English, since that was the only language we all had in common) about not just English speakers expecting English to be spoken when they came to visit France/Spain/Germany/etc, but also about other tourists who defaulted to English as well. They seemed to think that foreigners of any language group should have to learn each of the European languages in order to travel around Europe politely. Which is fine enough, if it’s a principle you hold yourself to as well. But when I asked them whether they ever learned a lick of Thai/Vietnamese/Xhosa/Hindi/etc for their travels OUTSIDE of Europe, they replied that of course they didn’t. They spoke to Vietnamese (or whoever) people in English.
Which made it seem to me less a question of over-riding principle, and more a matter of “But our languages are IMPORTANT enough to learn, and those ones aren’t…”
Like it or not, there’s a lingua franca, and it’s not only English speakers who benefit from it. It enables dialogue worldwide.
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I take a major risk in saying this, Eva, but I really agree here. If Jorge (my Mexican partner) hadn’t spoken any English and our Chinese friends hadn’t spoken any English there would have been no chance at dialogue. We studied Chinese, but at the beginning the only way we could have contact with Chinese people and learn about China was through English. If Jorge only spoke Spanish and the Chinese only Chinese that opportunity never would’ve arisen.
This is particularly true when a person is only traveling through a place for a short time. Jorge and I were in Borneo for one month and when we arrived we didn’t speak the language. We hooked up with the Hash House Harriers running group which was almost entirely Malaysian with a few British expats. We spent a lot of time with them and the Malaysians taught us about all sorts of things. If they hadn’t spoken English we never would’ve had that opportunity for dialogue.
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This is the first time I have actually read an article on Matador and quite possibly the last.
I understand that many comments made in this article are meant with a light-hearted spin but the overall tone offends me.
Learning a language isn’t easy, it takes a vested interest, an enormous amount of time and effort as well as the confidence to give it a go despite possible misunderstandings and uncomfortable silences.
I am learning a language. I speak this language with as many people as possible no matter what their mother tongue is. The result? shared knowledge and support. It is exactly your attitude that gives English speakers abroad a bad name.
There are no rules and if speaking a language makes you feel uncomfortable, go home.
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“There are no rules and if speaking a language makes you feel uncomfortable, go home. ”
Clara raises an interesting point above – you feel that English-speaking expats who can’t or won’t learn the language well enough should “go home” – but would you say the same thing to immigrants in America/Canada/New Zealand whose English isn’t up to par?
Honestly, you’re the second person to tell Sarah to “go home” on this thread – it’s a discussion-killer, it doesn’t advance conversation or debate, and it amazes me to hear it from travelers. Can’t we share the world with people we disagree with, without telling them to get out? Come on, people.
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Agreed. I find the “go home” attitude much more offensive than expressing frustration with ONE aspect of learning a new language.
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Kiwi Angela,
I’m sorry you feel that way. Speaking a language is hard and there are lots of misunderstandings at the beginning. I have been there plenty of times myself. I don’t feel uncomfortable speaking foreign languages at all. But what I was saying here is that there are instances in which speaking a foreign language with other native English speakers isn’t so useful or productive.
I hope you’ll at least cast a glance at these articles before you give up on Matador entirely!
http://matadorstudy.com/10-steps-to-becoming-fluent-in-a-language-in-6-months/
http://matadorabroad.com/5-metaphors-for-language-learning/
http://matadorabroad.com/follow-your-intuition-to-fluency/
We like to rock the boat a bit here at Abroad, but don’t give up on us!
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@Sarah (the response levels of comments on this page is abysmal!! Have to start a new level)
Although I don’t appreciate being accused of not actually reading the article, I totally deserve it for the angry first comment. I noticed that you strategically still didn’t actually address what I was talking about; you’re killing the enthusiasm of learners in their early stages and that is what I’m annoyed about.Yes, they will miss out on potentially interesting conversations, but please think of the long-term. If nobody ever gives learners a chance then they’ll never reach the level they need to, to talk to *locals*. You may have some local gems to share with them, but maybe their priority is learning the language, in which case you are not helping in the slightest, and sharing your “amazing knowledge” is just an excuse you are giving to not being helpful to someone in a way they actually want and need.
I still think your post is counter-productive and reflects a lazy attitude and I wish you would be more helpful with others. Promoting this attitude will seriously hinder people’s progress. Let’s all just give up on a language entirely and speak English forever if we run into other English speakers (which is basically always; hands up who travels and never ever hangs out with other expats? Nobody?)
I’m sure you speak Spanish most of the time, but this post shows me that you obviously don’t have a clue what it’s like being these people learning it from the basic stages in a country itself. Maybe you learned it in school or something before ever travelling and skipped the hardest stage with casual and long-term classrooom practises, but some of us didn’t have that privilege. A little compassion for someone struggling with something important to them would be appreciated. If you ever try to learn a language the hard way you may understand this and relate to these people rather than so insensitively dismiss them.↵ -
For what it’s worth, I am in the process of learning a new language and Sarah’s article did not offend or discourage me in the least.
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Thank you for raising an intersting point about helping language learners along when they’re at a critical stage of learning. I do think you’re right, that at the beginning stages of learning a language it’s important to speak as much as possible, and I think obviously that should be encouraged. And you’re right, reverting to English all the time undermines the language learning effort. But I do think there are circumstances in which a tradeoff is necessary–to go back to my Japanese example, I tried to speak Japanese when and wherever possible in Japan. My two closest friends there speak fluent Japanese. We would speak in Japanese whenever we were in the company of Japanese people, and sometimes we would practice together and they’d help me out. But would I ask them to go out for a beer and then insist on speaking my elementary Japanese for two hours? No, because I know it’s not interesting or fair for them, and there’s only so much I can learn in that circumstance. I’d learn a lot more by talking about Japanese culture or the process of learning the language there.
As far as a “let’s all give up on language forever,” please don’t rely on exaggeration and blow my article out of proportion. I site very specific circumstances here in which I say it might be more polite and productive to speak in English–don’t oversimplify my points.
And I think your argument would be much more interesting and effective if you didn’t rely on errant and rude assumptions. I “don’t have a clue what it’s like” to learn a language the “hard way?” First of all, I learned French entirely by living in France, studying political science at a French university. I kept learning when I taught at a French high school on Reunion island. I lived with French people and studied with them for two years. I then learned Spanish entirely by traveling in South America. I landed in Lima, Peru with not a word of Spanish, studied for three weeks at a language school to get the very basic grammar outlines and tenses, and learned the rest through seven months of traveling. I did a similar thing in Japan – landed without a word of Japanese and spent the first month there studying like mad and talking to people whenever possible. I am very familiar with what it feels like to be in those exhilerating and maddening initial stages of learning a language in a foreign country. So please be a bit more careful and respectful before you go making accusations.
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OK, I seem to have opened a can of worms here.
@LaPingvino – I appreciate the support, but this article isn’t actually about forcing foreigners to speak in English and Sarah defended herself well in that regard.
@Clara your comment is by far the stupidest. Racist? Please educate yourself on what that word means before you throw it around clumsily.Also, I’d like to apologise for telling Sarah to go home and would appreciate if others didn’t echo those words as they are appearing here. I said that out of anger because this topic is something I am passionate about. We all have our own ways of integrating into cultures and no one is better than any other. I’ll try to be less angry in future comments, but I still stand by the idea I was expressing even if my way of expressing it was harsh. You reminded me of so many people that have insulted me over the last 7 years so you can see how angry this has made me, especially when it seems you don’t understand our point of view. I am still very confused because you say you have been in this stage too. How can you be so uncompassionate to those you should surely relate to? The trade-off you mentioned is necessary for you and it’s your opinion, but that isn’t shared by a lot of learners. You are totally correct that using English is more polite in many situations, but when the learner wants to practise even in leisure time (which you didn’t in the examples you gave), then it’s not so polite to belittle them. A lot of people go about learning a language in a way different to how you did, so please respect that.
Sorry if my argument got out of hand, but I still don’t see you showing any sign of showing interest in the other point of view. I absolutely hate to see your rules up on this site. Maybe you can understand why this topic is so infuriating for me.↵ -
@Benny- I think we’re just misunderstanding each other here. You see, I don’t think that speaking English at times with another native English speaker means that one is not learning through immersion or integrating oneself into the local culture. I don’t think there’s a simple formula saying if you speak English with another English speaker you’re screwed! You’ve sold out! Given in! You’ve ruined the language learning process!
Can we look at this from a different angle for a sec? Imagine these scenarios. A Chinese immigrant might be in Canada studying all the English she can, but when she meets a Chinese friend from home who doesn’t speak English that well, they speak Chinese. A Mexican might travel to the U.S and speak English all day and night (and this is what my partner did) but when he meets another Mexican who doesn’t speak English that well, the two will switch into Spanish. Why is this such a terrible thing? Does this mean they’re not learning “correctly” or “the hard way” or they’re somehow betraying themselves? Does it mean they’re doomed and they’re sellouts?
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We don’t see the same point of view and that’s fine, but you still aren’t showing any remorse for the way you treat these otherwise eager learners. Frankly Sarah, it is a light form of bullying and you aren’t showing any sensitivity about it. In all your responses you aren’t actually addressing what I’m talking about.
Your Chinese and Mexican examples are completely ignoring the issue I keep trying to make you see. In those examples you never mentioned if they actually want to speak the language. If foreigners want to speak their language together when abroad, then more power to them!! I’m not trying to suggest that we should abandon our roots and only ever speak the local language. As a friend mentioned above, I too speak English on occasion in my travels and it’s non of my or anyone’s business what language two people want to speak together.
My issue with your post is the rules you’ve forced on people who DO NOT WANT to speak English with you. I would apply this to any language. If in your examples the Chinese or Mexican immigrant tried to speak English to another Chinese or Mexican person in the states/England etc. and was really trying and the other person dismissed them then I’d consider them equally arrogant, insensitive and selfish. If both people want to speak their language together, it’s a non-issue.
Please stop dancing around the issue I’m trying to discuss. Please stop giving examples of people who want to speak English together, or irrelevant metaphors of those of other languages who also want to speak together. Your own personal examples haven’t counted either because you never seemed to *want* to practise full-time, in those cases. This is why I feel you just don’t seem to get at all what my problem is with your behaviour. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems that you personally never wanted to practise the foreign language all the time (even if you have successfully learned languages by practising most of the time), so I still have to say that you just don’t get at all what those of us 100% committed to learning by trying it all the time feel when you act like this. You are happy to speak English in your “time off”, but we aren’t.
This discussion could go on forever; all I want to see is some sign of sensitivity in your treatment of people who do not want you to act like that with them, and in an ideal world you’d edit this post to take out the bullet points of rules ordering others to act as you wish, instead of simply being clear that you are just sharing your opinions. My retort “order” to you is to try to be more sensitive and less selfish.↵ -
As far as I’m concerned, this conversation is really about one thing – Anglophones are embarrassed about being monolingual. The Anglo ego is oh-so-fragile when it comes to being called out for sucking at a foreign language. Why so touchy everybody? There’s no shame in being bad at a language–every non-acculturated foreign speaker is lousy at the local language.
In my experience, people automatically, maybe even instinctively find the language that is easiest to communicate with. It’s only we Anglos that are so uptight about switching and acquiring new languages. Often times it’s because we’re pretending to speak a language better than we actually do and this is important to our image of ourselves as “good” Anglos–you know, the sensitive, internationally-minded types rather than the boorish and often unsightly tourists from our home countries.
To any beginning language students in that frustrating initial phase: I would actively discourage you from learning a language if you are as easily offended and uptight as some of the commenters on this post. Learning a language is an experience rife with misunderstanding, embarrassment and frustration. If you’re not prepared to be made fun of and embarrassed for speaking a language poorly, you’ll struggle.
And regarding Sara’s post, I thought it was lighthearted and poked fun at our bizarrely uptight language mores abroad. Awesome post, Sara!
One more thing itching at me. What kind of perv doesn’t permit themselves the periodic pleasure of speaking their native language? All this stuff about escaping English sounds totally neurotic. What’s the deal with our shame of being English speakers? It’s actually a pretty fun language. English speaking cultures, while admittedly irritating at times, aren’t totally rotten either.
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“What kind of perv doesn’t permit themselves the periodic pleasure of speaking in their native language?”
Great point, Dyevis.
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When I meet other English-speaking foreigners in other lands, we always start in the local language, and some of my English-speaking friends and I (in Argentina) have only ever spoken Spanish together. But with some of the, as soon as we make a personal, like really personal connection, we wind up conversing together in English as well, just because more important than learning a language, we want to become friends and get to know each other on different levels.
Benny – You and I have only spoken English together the two times we met, both in Italy and Argentina – and I think it’s for this reason- we know each other on a personal level, even if not very well, and we’re just used to speaking English together. I see you and I think in English. Just like I think in Spanish when I see some people and Italian when I see others.
I had a friend move to Buenos Aires just before I left, and her Spanish was not very good at all… since I know her in English, she and I spoke English together, but what I decided to do was take her with me when I got together with all my Spanish-speaking friends who knew no English. They opened their hearts right up to her and everybody was very patient with her as she struggled her way through the conversations. From what I hear she’s doing really well. I didn’t mind waiting for her to finish her sentences and I found it a pleasure to help her along and explain things – and in Argentina you have all the time in the world, so the longer conversations were just natural. But yes, at certain points we would just chit-chat in our own language because we had personal things to say that go beyond linguistics.
Benny has a point when he says the best way to learn a language is to stop speaking English all together. However, I find that this may not work for everybody. I love full immersion and it gives me a high. I applied this in both Italy and Argentina and it served me well. BUT, of course, giving myself a realm in which I can relax my brain in English (having a friend I get together with regularly for example) also helped me greatly. Gotta relax the brain to let it digest everything.
Don’t know where I’m going with this, but… great article anyway! I’m sorry that you received such a response from the women at the market – in my opinion, no matter what language someone is speaking, if they are friendly and trying to help, there’s no reason to be hostile.↵ -
I almost understand where you are coming from. Almost. It must get frustrating at times, especially when people get upset when you give up on them.
But then you go on with such a condescending, arrogant tone that’s really unfair on beginners. Like, painfully unfair.
Who among us hasn’t started out on something new, all too aware about how little we know and embarrassed to try knowing that we aren’t nearly as competent as we’d like to be. But we do it anyway, because we know that the only route to confidence is by making mistakes again and again.
To have belittiling comments like “like garbled, frustrated baby talk” and “…painfully flat American accents” helps precisly no one except you and your self-righteous attitude and shows that you really are clueless about the process of learning (despite your ‘rules’).
Why do you want to do that to people who are simply trying – and trying, no less, when they don’t even have to?
Next time, why don’t you use all of your language wisdom to actually help them along instead of insulting them with your holier-than-thou attitude.
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I think what a lot of people are missing here is that Sarah is not complaining about some innocent language-learning lambs who just want a little help… She is talking about fellow English-speakers being actively rude and upset with her for daring to speak English to them instead of X foreign language. In my experience, glaring and getting huffy are not the best way to get someone to help me out.
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No, I got that point just fine. And, I agree with it. If you can’t be bothered to help someone get better at something, they shouldn’t get annoyed at you for it. I respect that.
But the whole post is not about that. She moves on from personal experiences, to conversations that she is not even a part of:
“But still, I’d often find myself in situations in which I overheard several Americans having a brutally basic and torturous conversation..”
I agree that getting huffy is not the best way to help anyone out – whether that’s people trying to speak a new language or bloggers trying to vent their frustrations.
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Simon, you say this:
If you can’t be bothered to help someone get better at something, they shouldn’t get annoyed at you for it. I respect that.
You keep setting up this scenario of the noble language learner who just needs help to get better, and the selfish and condescending expat who just can’t be bothered. Let me ask you something. If you happen to be really good at math, and someone asks you to go out for beers and then lays their math homework on the table and says, “hey, we’re going to talk math the whole time. Help me out with this.” would you find it rude if you felt “bothered” by that? Would you think, “Ah, well, it’s my responsibility to help this person out?” What if that happened on a regular basis?
My point here is that this is a case of people demanding that other people practice and study what they want to practice and study. They’re not asking or saying, “hey, want to practice Spanish?” They’re insisting on using someone else for language practice regardless of whether that person is interested or not, or whether that language practice will be interesting or useful for the other person or not. I find that rude.
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I don’t see it as the same thing at all. The equivalent to the math homework analogy would be for me to speak Spanish to you AND demand that you correct my grammar, pronunciation and vocabulary. Simply trying to muddle through in a basic Spanish conversation is not the same thing at all.
You also made the comment: “But I do not see the point in practicing a foreign language with another native English speaker when his/her level is much higher than yours and you understand very little.”
For practical purposes how is this different to practising a foreign language with a non-native English speaker who happens to speak English perfectly?
I speak German and I have an Austrian friend. His English is far better than my German and it actually takes a little bit of effort for him to speak in High German rather than the fast colloquial Austrian-German he speaks with his friends. I still like to speak German with him occasionally – usually only when we’re alone, as in a group of people, we need to revert to a common language (which is usually English).
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Sensibilities aside, I find it a lot easier and liberating to try a new language with someone that’s as lost as I am.. that way we can both make jokes whenever we screw it, exchange silly phrases, have all the freedom to make mistakes, repeat over a dozen times whatever you wanted to say (and get help since the other person knows what you’re trying to say too!) and learn while having fun.. surely I could try this with locals only but I don’t think I’d take it with that much sense of humor, not everyone has the patience or time to teach languages.. I remember being in Buenos Aires and feeling so frustrated by my poor abilities to keep a conversation.. it was such a miserable, lonely time and I eventually got VERY homesick. it was until I met someone from my own country and slowly started integrating the ‘boluda’ ‘pará!’.. ‘que haces, boluda!’, when I suddenly just felt more comfortable, I could associate all the language and culture to comforting feelings, not just the sensation of being far away and desperate to hang on to my native tongue so I could release what felt like a storm of impressions in my head!.. it helped that we eventually moved together with an Argentinian guy and he was always teasing us, imitating our accents with moronic voices and using a ton of cursing that only called for an equal reply.. I’m not sure if he did it on purpose or if it was just meant to happen but exchanging silly phrases in argentinian spanish turned into my favorite pastime while devouring pastelitos every afternoon and playing video games, 8 months felt almost like 8 years.. the progress is incalculable and I still speak to my friends there in spanish, with all the argentinian slang..
I guess what I’m trying to say here, is that, for some people, learning a new language is easier to do with someone you can relate to.. surely there’s nothing like speaking without the smallest fear of being misunderstood, or not understood at all!, but for me, I’d rather sacrifice that little, easy treat and take advantage of the indescribable comfort someone from home gives me [regardless of what's coming out of his mouth] attaching that foreign language to these memories and make me fall in love with it instead of letting it become yet another trigger of my awkwardness and a simple tool of my stay in ‘that’ strange land.
hope that made some sense.↵ -
Interesting perspective!
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I would like to ask some of the commenters here if they’re more interested in delving deeper into someone’s differing opinion or if they just like to be condescending.
What happened to asking questions in a polite manner or at least disagreeing in a polite manner?
I know that sounds obvious but I’m a fan of respect, even on the Internet. I’m sure if we were all having a pow-wow about this in person, no one would be getting snarky.
I think I get where Sarah was coming from in her piece. I may not agree with every single point she made, but I don’t believe she was trying to talk down to anyone.↵ -
This article was interesting to me, as the experiences of the writer seem to be rather different from my own. I’ve spent the last few years living in Korea, and have travelled mainly in Northeast Asia. Very few of the native English speakers I’ve met in this part of the world have seemed particularly interested in learning or using any language other than English, or are capable of much more than ordering a beer in the local language. I’ve only spoken Korean or Japanese with three or four other English speakers, and I’m thrilled and amazed to hear that there is such enthusiasm among Anglophone travellers and residents in other parts of the world to learn the language(s) of their host country. I’m inclined to say that some of the people described in this article may be better off avoiding other expats as much as possible and spending most of their time in a monolingual environment, and not worrying much about what language to use on the rare occasions when they do meet other English speakers.
I don’t have fixed ‘rules’ on what language to use with people I meet, but in general I try to:
1. learn as much of the language(s) of the country or region I’m living or travelling in as time and other factors allow
2. use the local language with local people whenever I can, though there are sometimes situations when I need to use English or Korean when I’m travelling to communicate effectively, and I sometimes I use English with friends who I’ve known for years, even in Korea
3. strictly avoid people who want to use me for English practice – I often pretend that I don’t speak English, but I guess there are better strategies to achieve this
4. avoid expat hangouts (I’ve never understood their appeal) and Westerners who aren’t motivated to learn the local language
5. make it clear that I support multilingualism and linguistic diversity, and disapprove of monolingualism and the global dominance of EnglishI have no objections to speaking English with other Westerners, but I don’t spend much of my time socializing with expats. Learning a second or third language can be extremely difficult and frustrating, and I think it’s necessary to maximize the time spent using the target language, but this needs to be balanced with consideration for others and the need for effective communication.
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Richard,
Thank you very much for a balanced post. You really summed up my point with this article here:
3. strictly avoid people who want to use me for English practice – I often pretend that I don’t speak English, but I guess there are better strategies to achieve this.
This is how I feel about Spanish–it is frustrating and irritating to feel like you’re being used simply for language practice, especially if the person is not straightforward at all about wanting to practice the language and is instead simply asking you to do things in order to work on their language skills.
Your point here:
-Learning a second or third language can be extremely difficult and frustrating, and I think it’s necessary to maximize the time spent using the target language, but this needs to be balanced with consideration for others and the need for effective communication -
perfectly sums up my point about tradeoffs and balance. Thanks.
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I would like to pipe in here regarding the original article and the follow up discussion. I was very concerned about this article and the rules as stated at the end. I agree in sentiment with Benny and here is why.
Just FYI, I have learned many languages and have also taught several at educational institutions at all levels including universities. I also have a grounding in the many theories of second language acquisition and I am not sure anyone has spoken to that.
My concerns with the article are both cultural and linguistic, but I will speak briefly only to my linguistic concerns and observations.
First of all, output (speaking) is essential to learning a language. The more you do this and *notice* the difficulty you are having the better. The discomfort is part of the deal and those who ride it out have far more success than those who do not.
While I really understand that the point of the article is speech between English speakers in the language, that is how communicative language learning works in second language classrooms! There is no question that learning the language in the country is superior (works better for those who speak it ALL THE TIME), many people can and do learn languages without setting foot in the places they are spoken and they do it by being disciplined language learners. Those people, if they followed your rules in a language classroom would have problems progressing. I have seen what you describe as rules #1 and #2 play out in classrooms all of my career.
1.If you do not speak at the same level as your conversational partner, be aware of this when insisting on speaking in the local language.
2. If you do not understand what your partner is saying, it might be time to throw in the towel.
I see this article as encouraging the very behavior that limits learning in the SL classroom and taking it abroad, further eroding the very valuable opportunities of being in the place where the language is spoken.
I guess I feel everyone makes choices regarding language every day. I would never, ever want to discourage anyone from speaking a language not their own with anyone at any time. I especially would not want to encourage squandering a real privilege – being able to speak a language not your own on site in the country it is spoken. Again, it’s a choice to negotiate between speakers, but why not encourage those working on languages to use them all the time instead?
English speaking countries really do have the most monolingual speakers in the world and so those English speakers who are working really hard at any level of a second, third, fourth language (hopefully more) should be held up as role models and applauded. Many people come back from study abroad unchanged and without speaking the target language significantly better than when they left and this is because they spend time speaking English with other anglophones. What a waste.
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@ Linda: I appreciate your thoughtful post. The tone of the article is rather tongue-in-cheek and it’s meant to be a lighthearted rant about something I find irritating while living overseas. It’s not meant to be a manifesto about how to learn or not learn a language.
I have actually taught language in private language schools and at universities for the past four years. I agree that speaking as much as possible is wonderful. My point in this article was that at times I find it irritating when a native English speaker insists on speaking very low level Spanish with me (I live in Mexico) and the conversation becomes language practice for them and a rather tedious affair for me. If you’ll read the comments of other expats in this thread, you’ll see that this is a common phenomenon.
And before everyone– i.e., Simon- starts jumping in defending the poor little language learners who just want some practice and help, let me say that the type of people who I’m referring to in this article are the ones who are very pushy and very selfish about speaking the language they want to speak whenever they want to speak it. The situations I am referring to here are situations in which, for instance, someone asks me to go out for dinner or beers, and then insists on practicing their rudimentary language skills with me. I didn’t sign up in this case for language practice and I agreed to go for the conversation. But what ends up happening is that I end up in the role of tutor and spend my time helping out with vocab and verb tenses. If the other person and I agree to practice language together, great. If we go out for conversation, than this forced language practice is not cool and is essentially the selfish imposition of the other person.
My point begins and ends there. I’m not making a wider point about how language learners shouldn’t practice or should speak English together.
And Benny, you insist on my lack of compassion and my selfishness–how, I wonder, is it selfish of me to feel frustrated if someone asks me to go out for conversation and then insists on speaking the language they want to speak at a very rudimentary level, therefore forcing me into the role of tutor? I’m not a Spanish teacher, and if people invite me to go out for a conversation and then insist on practicing Spanish with me, I find that selfish on their part.
If you look at my example from the market in Oaxaca above, you’ll see that I tried to speak in Spanish with the woman because it seems that’s what she wanted. When she didn’t understand because the topic was too complicated, I told her in English. If I hadn’t told her in English, she wouldn’t have understood at all. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with her speaking Spanish, but I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with me giving her a tip about Oaxaca in English, since she couldn’t grasp the Spanish. How is that selfish?
You seem to have totally idealized the language learning process to the point where it’s ok to be completely rude and force other people to speak whatever language you want to speak whenever you want to speak it. It’s happened to me several times now where people ask me to do something, get coffee or dinner or beer, and then insist on speaking solely in Spanish. They didn’t say to me beforehand, “hey, let’s go practice Spanish.” If that were the case, I’d probably do it but with the knowledge that it’d be like a tutoring session. No, they said, “let’s go talk” but then insisted on practicing their Spanish. I find that rude and selfish.
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Sarah,
I will not add a lot, except to suggest that it seems clear that you are unable to see what is offensive about both your article and the follow up comments to it.
I had no trouble sorting out the genre of your writing. I would be surprised to find a language learning manifesto here. I was responding to your own comments about your experience in France.
You said to fellow classmates, “do you really think it’s helping your French to talk about how many brothers and sisters you have with other American French students?”
My point was merely that, yes actually you can help your French that way and it is backed up with research. May be counterintuitive, but it does indeed help to speak.
I was just hoping that you might consider stepping back and recognizing how your rules might be interpreted by others who are less experienced and skilled at both teaching and learning languages as you seem to be. But I fear that is not the case at all.
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I see your point, Linda. I suppose I’d rather practice speaking with other native speakers of French and not with other Americans.
As for how my rules are interpreted, let me clarify that these aren’t intended to be language learning rules. For me, they were intended to be a tongue-in-cheek primer on how to be polite when navigating in several different languages (namely, in this context, Spanish and English). They aren’t meant to be interpreted as a primer for how to learn a language.
I’m not sure if you’re an expat, Linda, but it seems like many expats run into similar situations and they have to decide what language to speak with one another. My “rules” were guidelines for how I decide what language to speak. If another expat or tourist speaks high level Spanish and wants to speak Spanish, ok, although I do think as David said it’s a bit pretentious. If we’re in a group situation with other Mexicans, it’s only Spanish. If it’s just another native speaker and myself, and one of our levels is much lower than the others’, than we speak English. Those were my rules.
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Seems like two different things are being discussed here.
Language learning and communicating.
For communicating people should use the language they have in common that they both speak best, usually that sorts itself out quickly.
For language learning in a foreign country why burden some poor expat or national from the country who speaks excellent English. Practice on some taxi driver or entry level student who is just as eager to learn your English.
I’d think that would all be obvious. What I don’t understand is what do you do when your German Shepard takes a crap at the market. Yuck!
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Sarah, I noticed that you haven’t responded to the issues I mentioned in my previous comment and have repeated what you have already said about not wanting to teach Spanish.
So instead of arguing opinions, I’ll be direct and look at the example you gave.
Why did you talk to this woman about Oaxaca?? Even in a monolingual conversation, making such a dramatic subject change is frustrating. She was talking about your dog; a natural continuation would have been you telling her how old your dog is etc. but you picked a topic of discussion that you knew she wouldn’t be able to handle in Spanish. She didn’t bring up the topic; you plucked it out of thin air. You felt the need to show people how much you know about local cooking and she never asked you about that. My Spanish is quite good and I’d still give you a funny look if you started rattling on about something I never asked you about. Please re-read what you wrote above and notice the unasked-for dramatic change of subject.
Did this woman ask you for Spanish classes? Nope. Sounds like she was just making small-talk; not asking you for intensive corrections of her use of the subjunctive. She asked you if your dog was nice. How dare she! Very rude and selfish indeed.
If someone invites you out for dinner then without knowing the circumstances it’s hard to say who is in the right or not. Maybe they should have warned you that they wanted to only speak in Spanish – or maybe they presumed that, you know, being in Mexico and all, they would get to speak Spanish. Perish the thought. Perhaps you should consider that Spanish is the default language some people expect there and YOU should be the one saying “Do you mind if we speak in English tonight?” It’s perfectly reasonable for you not to want to speak with people who prefer (or insist) on practising with you, but at the end of the day, while in Mexico that is YOUR problem, not theirs.
You are right that people shouldn’t force you to listen to their low level if you don’t want to, and you shouldn’t have to correct people’s Spanish when you are frustrated with it. I agree with you; and I doubt that I would have enough patience to be a “free Spanish teacher” for an entire evening either, unless of course, it was discussed in advance. But small talk in the middle of the street is not the same. You threw English in that woman’s face for no reason other than your wish to talk about something in particular that she may or may not have cared about. You didn’t even give her a chance! She said ONE WORD and you jumped to conclusions. If she was stumbling after that it may have simply been because you totally shattered her confidence and threw her off balance. This is why I keep saying that you are insensitive and selfish – you simply aren’t looking at it from the other person’s perspective, just your own, which I keep saying that I already understand.
If *she* had brought up cooking methods and asked you for your amazing insight into Mexican culture then it could have totally been her fault for stepping in it and introducing a topic of conversation she wasn’t prepared for. But she knew her limits and getting into a conversation that would lead to telling a stranger how cute their dog is doesn’t involve a huge sacrifice in your part to spend 30 seconds talking about your dog, even if she wouldn’t understand all of it. It’s not a frustrating evening Sarah, it’s a few seconds. Maybe the dinner invitation people or others have been rude with you, but YOU were rude to that woman, plain and simple.
I would never ask you to spend a whole evening talking about your favourite colour – that would indeed be selfish on my part, but you are forcing English on people even in the tiniest of conversations.
Someone mentioned above that people who want to avoid English should avoid expats, and I agree and that’s what I do. Sometimes English is unavoidable (especially when talking to tourists); and I can never get angry about that since they can’t help it. But when someone throws English at me in the middle of the street because they feel my level is not good enough for them, (*especially* a non-native who is in no place to be so arrogant) when I’ve clearly started a conversation in another language like you did to this woman then maybe I have a very good reason to give you “the look”. When I first started learning Spanish in Spain, Mexicans I met were very supportive (I have never lived in Mexico), so I imagine they are with that lady too and give her lots of encouragement. You may have been the first person in a while that snapped back at her in English. There is no doubt in my mind that you love English way more than that lady and I do. You need to step outside of yourself for a second and realize that some of us do indeed get offended when you insult our levels. Sometimes we may deserve it, but in the single dialogued example you’ve given, you were definitely in the wrong. I can see how stubborn you are about this issue so it really makes me sad to think I’ll never convince you and that you’ll continue forcing English on those that have shown you that they don’t want it, even in situations where your standard excuses are not valid.
I rarely socialise with expats because of my passion to learn a language as best and quickly as I can, so I wouldn’t invite English speakers out for dinner so regularly; when travelling English speakers with little of the local language can’t speak it to you it’s not really their fault. But expats who are fluent have no excuse other than their own stubbornness when it comes to short conversations. I’m sad to say that I’ve mostly avoided English speakers in the last 7 years because of the kinds of attitudes you have shown here.↵ -
Benny,
I don’t know how in the world you’ve managed to determine I’m being rude when I was trying to offer a friendly piece of advice to another traveler. It seems to me you’re really sensitive about this language issue to the point where you’ve lost touch with normal, balanced human interactions…you’re obsessing so much here about monitoring every inch of language that you’ve lost touch with actual communication and dialogue.
This woman was buying a bunch of local herbs, so I thought, hey, she must be into cooking. It’s huitlacoche season in Oaxaca. Huitlacoche is an amazing local specialty. I thought, she’d probably really like it if she’s into cooking, so I mentioned it to her. Is that “forcing English” upon her? Is she really so uptight and so paranoid about being in Spanish every second all the time that she’s going to be extraordinarily offended if I mention something in English? I was simply trying to make her a helpful offer and I did it in the easiest way possible, by speaking a language I knew she’d understand. When I spoke Spanish, she didn’t understand me and she became angry. Now, I personally find that a little bit extreme. I was simply trying to offer some local info–I know most travelers and cooks I know would be really happy to find out about some new thing they could cook. I certainly would. But because she was so vehement about not speaking English she ended up not understanding and walking away angry. That shows stubborness on HER part, Benny, not mine. I tried in English and then switched to Spanish, but she didn’t understand and got angry. It’s impossible to control every aspect of your linguistic universe and I think it’s a bit much to ask that every single person this woman talks to be cognizant of her language level and paranoid about adhering to it. It seems you’ve become so focused on this language learning aspect that you’ve become detached from simple, friendly and instantaneous communication. Since when are people making linguistic assessments while buying avocados in the market?
Somchai- the German Shepherd is well-trained. She just sits there and soaks the situation in. Doesn’t even blink when a woman carrying a live turkey in each hand walks by.
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What makes you so certain that this woman spoke English? Just because she didn’t speak Spanish well, it doesn’t follow that English is her native tongue or even a language she’s fluent in. Unless you are missing out a part of the story, I don’t know how you knew this.
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Believe it or not Sarah, your last comment makes me feel better. I take it for granted that writers on Matador are open minded and willing to discuss things, but you aren’t. There’s no point in arguing with narrow-minded people, so my issue isn’t actually with you anymore, but with the Matador site for putting up those horrible rules.
I’ve tried to make you understand the other point of view, but you are too blinded by your own. I’ve said that I agree with you on several points but you refuse to follow a normal discussion and are using circular logic to stubbornly refuse to be even slightly open, not to agreeing with me, but to accepting why you are clearly annoying so many people. Not just other commenters here, but those who have clearly show you in person how ignorant you are being with them. I actually do think you’re right about the long-evening; I agree with what other commenters who have agreed with you have said, but your arguments for forcing English on people who don’t want it in brief conversations because you are being “helpful” is ridiculous.
At the end of the day it’s pure hypocrisy. You are angry at these people for “forcing” their Spanish on you, and you are blissfully unaware that you are doing precisely the same thing with English, and doing it in an environment where English is not the language people expect to hear.
I’ll try to simplify my argument to you even further, since you clearly don’t get this at all. You think you are helping people, and that’s admirable, but imagine that I felt the need to tell random people on the street how ugly they were. In my mind I could be the biggest contributor to society possible and I am clearly being “helpful” by telling people to put on make-up, change their clothes etc. But I would be shocked that people give me horrible looks and I could go online and give a list of rules of what’s wrong with the world and how we need less ugly people, because ugly people “annoy” me. This is how I view your argument. You are so stuck in your own world and your obsession to speak English that you will use any argument not to see the other point of view. You aren’t being helpful, and you certainly aren’t being friendly! If people show you that they want to speak English with you then you would be. But if you treat people in a way they don’t want, you’re being an asshole, plain and simple.
I find it sad that you see my passion, the passion of other commenters here, and the passion of all of these dedicated people that keep giving you “the look” when you force English on them in Mexico as “losing touch with balanced human interaction.” You don’t understand our passion and that’s cool, but don’t force your unwanted unhelpful and unfriendly conversations on us. Give those people the respect their deserve for being so committed to their goal.↵ -
Benny, frankly, I’m not sure why you ever bothered apologizing for your initial rude comment given that nearly every one since has continued to shower insults on Sarah’s character (”arrogant,” “selfish,” “narrow-minded”) instead of debating your very differing *points of view* in a more civilized way. There should be a way to discuss your differing approaches to the subject without attacking her as a person.
As for your repeated concerns about why Matador published Sarah’s rules, last I checked this website was not in the business of censorship. Imagine if they only published articles that one particular set of readers were all in perfect agreement with? That wouldn’t be very interesting. Not much learning or communicating would go on if we all just sat around patting each other on the back every day. Just because you disagree with something, doesn’t mean that author should be silenced.
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Benny, I haven’t called you selfish or stupid or rude or narrow-minded. I haven’t used any “circular logic” here; I actually taught circular reasoning to my students in China and see none of it here. I’ve tried to debate my points with anecdotes, examples, and analysis but instead of actually contesting my points with calm and reasoned examples, explanations and analysis you continue to attack my character. In the case of the market situation, you described what you saw as me being selfish. I described what happened to me in the situation. Instead of responding to my description, you lash out at me for being narrow-minded and “annoying” so many people?
If you’ll re-read many of the comments in this thread, you’ll see that there are actually many people who enjoyed and sympathized with this article, and whose responses aren’t outraged attacks about my idiocy or narrow-mindedness.
I say we both agree that language learning is a great thing and should be encouraged. We obviously see this article differently. I’m sorry if it’s offended you, but I wish you could debate the issue more respectfully and professionally.
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Thanks for your response Sarah. If you’ve studied logic then I imagine you have much better skills for arguing a point than I do, but that doesn’t make the point I’m trying to express any less valid. When we argue politics or philosophy, attacking the arguer is pointless. But my problem is about your behaviour, so I have to address you in particular and maybe petty namecalling seems immature, but I can’t see any other way of showing you how annoyed these people who keep giving you “the look” are, other than showing you my own annoyance in recalling similar situations. I appreciate the apology for offending me (although I would hope you were sorry about offending 100% committed learners in general) and I have obviously been very offensive in my comments. Your post is controversial and offensive by nature so frankly, you were asking for it. Someone needs to hear the other point of view for the people you are lashing out at in this post and that is what I tried to do. I apologise if the way I did it was inappropriate, but I stand by what I said.
Other than having my own rant, I was really hoping to convince you to understand why all of these people you talk about in the article give you that look, and perhaps make you think twice about speaking English in a situation similar to the lady in the market. Sadly I have failed at this. This post makes me very angry so that is why my comments are in that tone. I’m trying to give you the voiced reaction that that lady and others couldn’t because she doesn’t want to tell you how she feels in English.
I’ve already said that I agree with those who have agreed with you. However, I don’t care if a million people agree with you, since they may not relate to the other point-of-view; I’m trying to show you all how those speakers feel in these situations. It’s the other side of the argument and it needs to be voiced… even if that has to be by a hot-blooded Irishman!
@Eva I am not suggesting censorship. If I was I’d ask for this article to be removed, which I am certainly not, since it has sparked an interesting discussion.↵ -
wow, wudup with all the hostility. it brings to mind that notion that we can forgive anything except what we ourselves have been guilty of.
anyway, not to get off on abstractions–sarah, i agree with your ‘rules.’ as someone in a bilingual, bi cultural family, Ii’ve ended up using a similar albeit loose framework when trying to communicate:
1. always attempt to speak to whomever it is in his or her native language.
2. if it’s a group situation with multiple language-speakers present, always default to the local language, playing ‘interpreter’ as best you can to help include as many people as possible.
it’s worth noting too–it might just be me, but i don’t like to speak spanish to another gringo even if i’m in latin america–if we’re the only two people there–unless there’s some special situation involved, like i’m explaining some spanish language trick (like when to use subjuntivo) or whatever.
overall, situations might be different for different people, especially those in language schools who are trying to ‘preserve some kind of ‘immersion’, but to be dogmatic or fundamentalist about this seems. . . .like. .. .
i should just say….
those guys out there (and ladies) who have to speak whatever language it is no matter what the situation: they’re the SUPER LANGUAGE HEROES!
and we also have.. .
those out there who see other gringos and just run away, or pretend they’re locals and don’t understand English. they’re the SUPER LOCAL HEROES!
damn…there are all kinds of us ‘travelers’ out there. for me it all just comes down to style and communication. i felt like sarah was just showing hers. que chingazo.
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Someone said here that Dutch peple start speaking English to foreigners as an exception rather than the rule?
ha-ha-ha, that really made me laugh!
It took me superhuman efforts to start speaking Dutch more or less fluently by the end of 7 years exactly because Dutch people ALWAYS swith to English when they hear an accent:)
But on the discussion here, I don’t agree with you Sarah when you say that you mostly speak about foreigners talking in a foreigh language. I agree on this point with you, as I also find it ridiculous when people try to explain complicated things to each other in one hour when they can easily explain it quicker and more efficiently in the language they know better.
But by saying that you asked the Spanish woman: have you tried huitlacoche? – you are bringing a totally different point into your article.
Sorry, I speak English pretty well (at least I hope so), and I have no idea what this word means, even after you have given an explanation. I probably don’t even know it in Russian (my native language). So, you should be prepared that people criticize you for these points, as it does pass as arrogance I am afraid.
I had it myself when I was learning French in Brussels and all people who were learning Russian there tried to practice it with me. I insisted on speaking French, as I found it unproductive for me.
But when I moved to Amsterdam and faced the problem that NATIVE speakers refuse speaking the language which you try to learn so hard, when I undersood that you can only learn the language when someone replies back to you in that very language.↵ -
@ Caitlin: you say “the equivalent to the math homework analogy would be for me to speak Spanish to you AND demand that you correct my grammar, pronunciation and vocabulary.” But you see, this is often what ends up happening when people insist on speaking Spanish with another native English speaker whose level is higher. There are frequent pauses and the person stumbles across a word or a tense they don’t know, so we go over that, and then the conversation goes on. This is what you call “muddling through” a conversation. Both parties are naturally involved, and one falls by default into a teaching role.
You also say: “For practical purposes how is this different to practising a foreign language with a non-native English speaker who happens to speak English perfectly?”
I don’t think the two situations are that different. And that’s why I think a lot of commenters here have said that in general, in the majority of situations, they choose a language that will best allow them to communicate.
It’s fantastic that you and your Austrian friend can converse in German. It sounds like you guys have reached an agreement about that, explicitly or implicitly, and that’s great. But what I’m saying is that I think people should be respectful about the language level of their conversational partner. If your level of Spanish is very low, and your Mexican conversational partner is fluent in English, than be aware of the fact that you’re basically asking this person to engage in language practice with you. You’re not speaking Spanish because of the need to communicate but rather because you want to practice your Spanish, and therefore your partner is going to fall into the teaching role. In this situation it’s great if both parties are on the same page, and the one who’s getting the language practice understands that this is placing a certain demand on the other person.
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Sarah,
I think you make an assumption about the role as the “more advanced speaker” in that somehow one must then fall by default into the teaching role. This may be a choice you make, but it is not by any means what everyone chooses to do when speaking with another ‘less advanced speaker’. I see everyone as working on languages all through life. I do not tend to classify speakers into levels. i see them as people trying to communicate as best they can at the time.
Children learning their first language spend a lot of time speaking to more advanced speakers and they do not learn the language by that kind of explicit correction.
Who exactly is at the exact same level as the other person in ANY language, even native speakers? If I spent my time correcting others’ grammar and word choice in English, people would find me arrogant and insulting. I would never do this in a social setting in English or any language regardless of my location.
Not everyone feels a need to correct others’ grammar, pronunciation, and vocabulary choices or are frustrated that others’ language level is not the same as theirs. I am glad that through the years so many people have been willing to converse with me in so many languages. They have been patient, generous and giving of themselves. Had they not, I would very likely be less enthusiastic about the learning of languages.
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Sarah, I agree. There are few things more irritating that the sound of two native-speakers trying to speak a different language to each other when no-one else is around. It just smacks of showing off. Why not just make local friends and practise with them instead? Personally, I believe that learning a language is like anything else. You need a break from it now and then to allow time for it to sink in.
On a personal note, I generally speak Spanish to Spanish-speaking friends and English to English speakers and go with the flow when there’s a mixture of the two.What really winds me up though is when I speak the local language and shop-keepers etc insist on speaking to me in English. In the middle of a terrible day on Friday (see my blog) I asked a shop assistant if they sold phone cards to call abroad and she began with the whole ‘I am speaking the English’ routine, while I continued to speak in fluent Spanish. I understand that people want to practise, but when I’ve made the effort to learn their language, I’d like to use it.
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If “no-one else is around” then how can the sound of them speaking to eachother be irritating?? That makes no sense. If you are within a few metres of these people then it’s none of your business what language two people speak together, especially if it’s the language of the country they are currently in and especially if you aren’t even involved in the discussion.
The main part of the article is about a will to have a full-time commitment in speaking a language versus a bilingual person finding that commitment annoying and prefering English with English speakers. I’ve said what I’ve had to say about that if you are involved in the conversation.
But if two people are eager to speak a language together and you aren’t involved then let them be. I don’t know how you other bilingual people learned a language; maybe you grew up in a bilingual environment, or maybe are super intelligent and made a quantum leap from beginner to bilingual overnight, but some of us need to work hard to reach fluency. This post annoys me because you are belittling that work and the sacrifices we make and dismissing it as annoying you. If we decide to practise on one another instead of having a half-assed approach of speaking the local language some of the time, and you tell us not to when it is no concern of yours, then I can tell you were to stick your orders…
In an ideal world we’d all reach fluency overnight, but that’s not the case and we need to practise. Everyone moving to villages in the mountains to do so is not practical, so there will naturally be other English speakers around. The danger is just socialising with those other speakers in English and barely using the local language. If you are on holiday then that’s great, but if you are there to learn the local language then speaking English is a mistake.
If the goal were to have a deep discussion about Mexican cooking methods or whatever, then speaking Spanish when you aren’t ready may be pushing it, but when we move our lives to learn a language, sometimes the goal is to learn that language plain and simple. We make sacrifices to reach our target, like anyone with a long-term goal needs to make sacrifices. Somehow our lives will continue without other English speakers’ amazing insights, and we will have tedious conversations about how many brothers or sisters we have until we can have real conversations. We’ve made that choice to think long-term and I urge people considering giving up on full-time commitment not to, because you will reach your goal and the benefits of deep conversations with locals is amazing! We will simply never get beyond the basics if nobody lets us practise.
A lot of locals also speak English, so if having as deep a conversation as possible were the ultimate goal then we could just abandon learning languages altogether and only speak English all the time. A lot of people do that already (as bingojesus just said), and I believe Sarah’s same arguments can be used from the local persons perspective of not wanting to have a frustrating conversation if they can do better in English. Sorry Sarah and Eva etc. but sometimes you have to annoy some people, and I find your arguments of “stop annoying me” hypocritical because you are equally annoying to the learners as their facial expressions and cold retorts clearly suggest. They are otherwise wasting their time in the country if your goal is to learn its language.
I met an English guy who has been living here in Prague for a shocking 10 years, and he still can’t say anything but the basics in Czech because he went the lazy route, agreed with the concept of this post and never tried to go beyond English because he “wasn’t ready”. This is what ultimately happens when you don’t devote yourself to learning a language. If you do it half-assed and only speak it with locals who don’t speak English (which is quite hard in many places; no foreigner with some English would EVER learn Dutch with this attitude based on what was said above), but socialise in English all day long then at best you will learn it, but painfully slowly. At worst you will have maybe made some nice English speaking friends, but wasted your time in terms of your original goal. A lot of people insist that I speak in English so they can hear my lovely Irish accent, but I didn’t travel thousands of kilometres to speak English, and like you may not like teaching the local language, I also don’t like teaching or promoting the use of English if someone isn’t paying me for it.
If an English speaker is annoyed to hear me practise the local language then tough luck; if its with you then I’m not going to suggest you don’t get annoyed, but at least appreciate my devotion to learning and acknowledge that. In an encounter on the street you may ruin someone’s morning when you throw English at them when they have been so confident otherwise. And frankly, if you are not in the conversation and it’s annoying you then leave us alone. When I move to a country I’m there for a reason and pleasing people who have a hard-on for English is not that reason.↵ -
After having reread the article, I am amazed to see that Sarah insists on sayng that her article is only about Native-speakers speaking a foreigin language abroad.
It is not the case (even if apparently some things were added later to the article), as nor was it clear whether the woman at the market was English or Spanish or Mexiacan or whatever, nor was it clear why did you ask her that question in English.
I am sorry but it just shows the arrogance of some English-speakers assuming that everyone should speak English.
Maybe in US and UK, but there are some other countries where people actually DON’T want to hear it and are not happy when English-speakers, especially Americans, assume that the whole world is happy with their Macdonalds domination (but it’s enterily a different debate) and thus, learn English as a result.
Neither do I agree anymore that even English or any native speakers should speak their own language between themselves. I learned Dutch only thanks to other foreigners who were practicing it with me.
As to English-speakers, we should really appload those who try to learn another language, and considering that now everyone ‘is supposed’ to speak English, the only way for English-speakers to learn a foreign language is to speak it between them, – like your American fellows in Paris.↵ -
If you are responding to this point Sarah (I doubt you believe in McDonald’s English globalisation, but this can easily be interpreted from your article) please don’t say again that she “misunderstood”. You may not be using direct insults like I am, but smugly saying how everyone who doesn’t share your opinion doesn’t understand, is quite condescending. Rather than repeat what you’ve already said and telling us to re-read your post and comments, please address the issue and explain how forcing people to speak English who clearly don’t want to and getting angry at people not even speaking English with you when they are in a non-English speaking country cannot be looked at in this way?
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Ekaterina-
Nothing has been added to this article after it was published. I wonder why you make that accusation? Do you have anything to back it up? The article has been untouched since it was first published.
Also, do you have any reasoning for why you are “amazed to see that Sarah insists on sayng that her article is only about Native-speakers speaking a foreigin language abroad?”
That is what this article is about – that is why my rules were intended to be a lighthearted guideline for how I navigate conversations WITH OTHER NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKERS abroad. I say that explicitly many times in the article, including when I lay out the rules. Nowhere do I say anything about native English speakers speaking English with other people whose first language is not English. Even Benny acknowledged that in a comment above.
Plenty of other commenters have understood that, but it seems some people seem to negate or ignore that fact article entirely. I’m sure there’s a lot of sensitivity about native English speakers insisting on English with people whose first language isn’t English, but that isn’t the topic of that article and it’s certainly not my point. If you think it is, you need to re-read the article more careful before making accusatory comments.
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Sarah,
I didn’t put correctly when I said that some things were added to the article, – I meant that a lot of things you wanted to say in the article were clarified in the comments.
Which is actually the purpose of the site, – articles provoke debate, and writers can clarify the points, while readers can disagree and say what they think.
Judging from your reply, – you can’t handle any criticism whatesover.
Fine, but in this case, – don’t write about sensitive subjects or publish them somewhere where people can’t leave comments.
Since you are a contributing editor to matador, I suppose you can publish anything, which should be probably rechecked after seeing how you handle situations when people interpret your article differently.
I thought that matador was a good-quality site.
Yes, I rearead the article and I reread it twice.
Don’t tell me that other readers thought, as everyone can have his or her opinion on what is written. You seem to be interested in philosophy. You should probably reread Derrida, who talks about the fact that everyone can interpret any writing in a different way.
What emerged from your article was that you assume that everyone can speak English.
Sorry, but you should probably recheck your own article then.
You do specify indeed that you talked about native English speakers in the comment to me, but when I read the article it wasn’t clear at all.↵ -
Ekaterina, I have calmly and clearly debated my point many times. You and Benny have called me arrogant, narrow-minded, selfish, lazy, stubborn, rude, and intolerant of criticism and accused me of “forcing English on people” and assuming “the whole world is happy with [my] Macdonald’s domination.” To add insult to injury Benny’s further response is that “I asked for it.” How is this professional, and how is it leading to a quality debate? It’s degenerated into mere angry ranting.
I have made my point many times and illustrated many times that in no way am I “forcing English” on people or encouraging this, and yet Benny keeps coming back demanding I explain why I insist “forcing English” on people. Unless I concede that yes, I am utterly in the wrong and I’m forcing English on people because I love English and think everyone should speak it everywhere whenever I want to, then I think the derogatory comments are going to keep flying from certain people.
As for your comment that: “you do specify indeed that you talked about native English speakers in the comment to me, but when I read the article it wasn’t clear at all.” I don’t really understand how or why that’s not clear, seeing as I say many, many times that I’m referring to conversations between native English speakers. Other people seem to have picked up on that naturally – I really don’t understand how that seems so oblique to you.
Anyway, this debate doesn’t seem to be going anywhere and I’m tired of being accused of all sorts of things for not conceding to the accusation that my article is about “forcing English” upon poor, innocent language students. It seems we all think language study is a good thing, and have different ways of dealing with situations in which we’re juggling multiple languages with fellow native English speakers.
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Sarah,
I am sorry, – but where did i call you all the names you mention in your reply?
I spoke of arrogance, yes, but didn’t say that you were arrogant.
I also apologise if you understood that I was accusing you of adding things to the article, – I was talking about comments, but I can understand that from how I put it, – it was indeed a serious allegation.
Also, I am sorry for my last harsh comment. But I do think that people might interpret articles in a different way.
You should be in fact glad that your article provoked so many responses. I already sent it to several friends to see what they think.
Yes, I was angry when I first read it, – but you indeed clarified the points.↵ -
>>To add insult to injury Benny’s further response is that “I asked for it.”
Your article is a controversial opinion that has clearly sparked anger. What else did you expect? The whole world to agree with you?>>It’s degenerated into mere angry ranting.
It STARTED as angry ranting. That’s all your article is.>> Benny keeps coming back demanding I explain why I insist “forcing English” on people.
People don’t want to speak English with you and you make them. Which part of forcing am I not getting?>>Anyway, this debate doesn’t seem to be going anywhere and I’m tired
Agreed. All I want is you to show a little empathy for the other point of view and despite me trying to find a middle ground, agreeing with you on several points, you have never budged to even acknowledge why you may be making people angry. This was never a discussion because you never actually gave a little lay-way to the other point of view.>> the accusation that my article is about “forcing English” upon poor, innocent language students.
That is, once again, condescending. I consider you a bully Sarah, as all bullies consider their victims to be overly-sensitive. You never saw that or understood why I said that. You think you are helping people, and that is admirable. But the looks should surely tell you that you are not. I desperately wish you could see this.>>It seems we all think language study is a good thing, and have different ways of dealing with situations in which we’re juggling multiple languages with fellow native English speakers.
I also agree with this, but apart from vague comments like this you never show any respect to intensive learners in your follow-up comments.
What I wanted in the last comments was for you to put yourself in the other person’s shoes and say that there is maybe the *slightest* chance that they are right to speak Spanish in Mexico with everyone, even if it is frustrating for you. You aren’t going to do this, so at the end of the day all we can do is agree to disagree.↵ -
@ Benny,
I think you need a good sit down in a quiet room.
You keep using ‘we’. Are there more than one of you? Or are you hearing voices?
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I learnt Spanish by going out of my way to meet, speak and befriend local people,doing language exchanges and taking classes.
You go ahead and speak whatever language you like to whomever you like and if it bothers you that much, why not write your own article?
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Bingo,
if you have bothered to check Benny’s site, you would see that he does write articles (and numerous) exactly on this subject.
If you want a debate, – we should stop insulting each other but ask questions.
I understand Benny (and if you want to know who are ‘we’ when you can put me in the same basket) as he did ask questions to Sarah, which were not answered. He also did apologise for his first harsh comment.
The article is controversial, and Sarah, you should probably agree that it could provoke a certain anger from some people and that in some points you were not clear. Also people have different opinions on the way how people speak and learn the language.
By saying that you do everything possible to learn the language, Bingo, – you actually agree with Benny’s point of view.↵ -
Check it out, I want to make a couple of points here. First of all, I am all about trying to improve proficiency in one’s foreign language studies, but if you want to do that, you should definitely be doing it with native speakers. To me it doesn’t really make sense to further your foreign language abilities by practicing with someone who is also learning it as a second language even if they are much more advanced. Speaking with a native will give you so many little insights onto pronunciation and a correct (or at least more authentic at best) grammar and manner of speaking. When we learn foreign languages, we are learning from books or lessons or CDs or a combination of methods at first, and obviously there is nothing wrong with this, this is essential in starting out. But then once we attain a certain level, then really the only way to get better is to speak with native speakers. Ideally we should live in a country where the language is spoken as well; it is pretty obvious that immersion is probably the fastest and best way to improve one’s skills after a certain point. To me, if I run into a fellow native English speaker in a foreign country even though we both speak the language of that country, we will probably talk in English. I cannot see what is wrong with this. If the person really, really wants to practice their Spanish, they should be doing that with a native speaker anyway, in my opinion.
Also, I hope that all Anglophones are not so arrogant to think that everyone should speak English. But the world is how it is. Now, English is a lingua franca, just like French used to be in the 1980s. Back then French used to be the language of diplomacy. Now that has shifted to English. I think it depends on the situation. If you are taking a weekend trip to a country whose language you don’t know, I don’t think you should be forced to learn the whole language, but it would help to carry a phrasebook and learn some basic words. If you are living in the country for a while, then, well I mean, I suppose you can’t force anyone to learn a language, but I’d like to think that it shows respect to put forth that effort. But people can get away with that because English is a lingua franca. It is the way of the world, like it or not. Plus, how do the Portuguese talk to the Armenians, how do the Swiss communicate with the Finns, how do the Slovenians chat it up with the Estonians? I could be wrong, but I am assuming that in the majority of those cases those people will communicate in the English language. I don’t want to begin to discuss the geopolitics of it all, I am viewing this thread mostly in the pure linguistic sense, even though politics influences language greatly. I have been to countries where the vast majority of the population could not speak English and I had to communicate in their language, and now I am in a country where many people speak English at least decently, and I am slowly learning their native language. In closing, there are no rules when it comes to who can speak to who in what language, that’s for sure.
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Dear all,
I found the article very interesting as well as most of the comments.Probably, later on, I will write a longer comment on language perception, learning and communication.
What I would like to point out now is that there is some arrogance in certain replies, which should be avoided, as well as some ‘common points’, which are often wrong.
Being mathematician, I tell you that I with enormous pleasure explained, explain, will and would explain and discuss mathematics whenever and wherever being asked (bars, restaurants, markets, drinking wine, day and night).
Therefore, avoid generalisations, please.
Amore
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Benny – I can’t actually believe you are the one calling Sarah a bully. From your first comment, you have offered nothing but anger and insults – and yes, you apologized initially but then went right back at it again. You have also repeatedly wished that her article – her opinion – had never been published at all. (You can say you’re not advocating censorship, but regretting that someone’s words ever saw the light of day is pretty darn close.) You may have found Sarah’s piece offensive in a big-picture sense, but nowhere in it did she call out and insult or question the character of any given individual, so don’t tell me she started it. She has been remarkably restrained in her comments, too, despite being called names and smeared as a terrible person throughout.
Matador is a close-knit community, and it requires mutual respect to function. What I love most about it is the exchange of ideas, which yes, can get heated but generally remains respectful. Unfortunately, on this thread you seem to be incapable of disagreeing with someone without hurling insults. You are the bully here. It’s a shame that you can’t recognize that. I hope you give it some thought. In the meantime, I am done arguing with you.
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Yeah, there seems to be an unnecessary amount of venom in some of these comments. But I don’t totally agree with the article either.
Different people cope with living abroad / traveling abroad in different ways. Some folks go the total-immersion route and completely avoid doing anything ‘non-local’… and philosophically I have no problem with that. In reality though, it’s unrealistic, and when taken to extremes – selfish.
Because to me, the primary function of a language is for communication. So yeah, if I’m trying to learn a grammatical structure I will go around telling everyone I chat with “I have two older sisters but I don’t have a brother.” because it’s a step on the way to communicating something like “I have my passport but I don’t have a visa”. And I will use as much Thai as I can in the market. But when it comes to doing something like a money transfer at a bank where the teller speaks better English than I do Thai – you can bet I’m going to revert to English because that is the language that will allow the clearest communication between us.
And aaahhhh…. clear communication, surprising how difficult it can be even between people who speak the same language.
And I practice my Thai with plenty of people, both native Thai speakers and native English speakers, as well as friends from Japan, or the Philippines. I practice Thai with other non-native Thai speakers because we *can* help each other. Of course it’s not the same as practicing with a local… but it has it’s place… ESPECIALLY because the person who’s more advanced can explain a bit of vocabulary or grammar in English so that I can understand it. A two sentence English explanation can be worth two weeks of trial and error with locals.
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