Photo by The Philosophy Of Travel
Feature photo by Stinkie Pinkie
Hey you, backpacker girl. Yes you, in the halter top and jean shorts, drinking a banana shake by the Mekong.
Would you walk down the street topless in Brisbane or Stockholm or Boston?
Sorry, don’t mean to offend you. It’s just that the way you’re dressed is totally inappropriate for this place. Look around at the local women – do you see any bare shoulders?
No, don’t point to the bar down the street. Those women are prostitutes.
The fact is, wearing skimpy clothes in Southeast Asia makes YOU look like a prostitute. Sure, the locals are used to backpacker fashion by now, and if you stick to the banana pancake trail, you won’t get more than a few uncomfortably long looks.
Not impressed by backpacker fashion.
Photo by Akuppa
But if you venture outside the tourist zones and – gasp – actually attempt to interact with local people on more than the most superficial level, your bare skin will be totally offensive. You can get around the language barrier to make genuine connections, but flouting cultural norms separates you from the locals as effectively as razor wire.
Show A Little Respect
OK, OK. You’re on holiday. You’re here to have fun, try some new food and maybe hook up with that dreamy English guy who you met tubing in Vang Vieng. You’re not in Laos to be some sort of freelance ambassador.
But, just for a moment, imagine what your grandparents would say if rich, rowdy, foreigners – perhaps Russians, or Africans, or Eskimos – started pouring into your hometown wearing nothing but body paint, leather boots and thongs. Poor Grandma would wonder what the world was coming to, wouldn’t she.
So show a little respect. Buy a sarong in the local market, put away your tube-tops and for Buddha’s sake, please cover up if you visit a temple.
Hippie Bombs
Photo by JonRawlinson
Backpacker guys, you’re not off the hook. When was the last time you showered? Did you use soap?
Dreads and stubble might show off how far-out you’ve gone on your travels, but in Southeast Asia personal hygiene is of utmost importance. Be neat. Be clean. Wash your hair.
America might not be dropping cluster bombs on Southeast Asia anymore, but hippie-bombs are also disruptive to local culture. Take care of your appearance, and you’ll get a lot more out of your travels.
What say you, readers? Am I too harsh on tube-tops? Please leave a comment below.
Other Matador articles to check out include Has Travel Chanel Sunk To A New Low With Bridget’s Sexiest Beaches? and the classic Budget Travelers Are Hippie Scum.
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70 Comments... join the discussion!
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I grew up in South East Asia (specifically, the Philippines) and traveled a lot in the region. I agree to an extent. Though the Philippines is a more Westernized than some Asian countries (due to colonization by Spain and US..and Japan, but since we’re talking about westernization…), I think the aspect that I would like to criticize is that its almost as though the article paints Asia in a one-dimensional manner…that people are all adorned head-to-toe in traditional garb and are completely shocked when they see anyone in a shorts or a halter top. I know that’s not what you meant, but in your efforts to shed light on a cultural insensitivity…sounds insensitive and somewhat condescending. Sorry, I mean no offense but that’s how it comes off…Asians wear shorts, tank tops and flip flops too btw…and no, not ALL of those that do wear “modern” clothes are prostitutes… ; P
And yes, you’re right. People lumbering down the street with their butt cheeks hanging out or smelling like last month’s dried fish would be deemed disrespectful…in any culture and society. I agree that people should show more awareness to their immediate surroundings, such as “dont wear a tube top in a church, mosque or temple.” Or if you venture to a region where it is explicitly understood to be conservative, then yes…dont frolic in your underwear (not that you should anyway).
And when it comes to backpacker guys? I think that an aspect that should be noted are how some guys treat the local women…or even fellow backpacker women. And to link it up..yes, the smelliest are sometimes the most offensive. haha …Away from home many act as though they can do or treat anyone the way the want because no one they know is going to punish them for it.
BUT the angle I do agree with is the call for respect. I think that the most offensive things that travelers can do is to act with a sense of entitlement. Of course this can go both ways…though sadly, in my experience, many Western travelers come to Asian (or poorer) countries and walk the streets as though they are Kings (and Queens). Many people come to a certain country and expect things to run the exact same way as their home state but at the same time revel in all the perks such as cheap services (such as massages) or that they become like “local celebrities”…And when things arent running the way they are used to treat locals with such disrespect it makes me cringe…(yelling, raising their voice, bullying, being general assholes..) when the way things work are completely different.
And in a way, this ties up to your article…A lot of people end up not caring about society they are visiting…only in search of “crazy” stories they can take home, adding another notch to their belt of people they’ve slept with, and…dressing (or “not” dressing) the way they want. I think its the behaviour and attitude that comes with the clothing (or lack thereof) that is so offensive…
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Tim ~
I agree completely. While I think it is important to maintain a sense of individuality and independence while traveling, the only way to truly respect a culture is to follow – to a certain extent – its cultural rules. Some things are just not acceptable. If travelers can’t respect local cultural rules, they shouldn’t to be treated with respect by the local population in return. Thanks for the great post (and the ridiculous pictures).
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Hmm. This is a tricky one — there’s a great discussion going on at the Notebook right now about the potential limits of “When in Rome…” for travelers:
http://thetravelersnotebook.com/how-to/how-to-avoid-being-an-ugly-american-tourist/
Ordinarily I’m big on cultural respect, but unfortunately, Tim, you’ve picked up on a sore spot for me (and, I suspect, a lot of women). And, even when you’re a visitor, I think you and your culture deserve respect, too. It’s a two-way street.
My culture says that women should be allowed to dress as they choose, and forcing them to cover up is a form of oppression. (The historical context being decades, centuries even, of progress towards women’s rights in which women literally fought and died.) Even today, we deal with judges suggesting that rape victims were “asking for it” if they were wearing, say, a halter top and jean shorts. So it’s not just a fashion preference — in a very real way, wearing what we want, when we want, is about politics, and culture.
Looked at that way, the flip side of the tube-top-on-the-Mekong scenario isn’t really “Eskimos” (huh?) in body paint, it would be, say, forcing traditionally-dressed visitors to strip down. Many women in North America (rightly or wrongly) view the hijab or the abaya as a grotesque symbol of oppression — but we don’t force Saudi visitors to strip off into bikinis — because we respect their right to cultural difference.
Now, there are limits, obviously. Religious buildings are an important exception, and more generally, I’m not going to walk around Laos flaunting the “two-belt look” — skinny tube top and ultra mini skirt. But I think there is more to respecting the culture I’m visiting than what I’m wearing — Michaela made a good point about this. Learning, asking questions respectfully, treating people politely — all of this should matter more than how long my sleeves are. And, I think/hope, most people in foreign countries understand that foreigners are different, and adjust their expectations accordingly.
I dressed as I normally would for hot weather in Malaysia, Thailand, and Vietnam, and never had a problem. (I dressed more conservatively for religious events.) In India, though, I covered up — not out of respect but out of fear, because I knew the sexual harassment I endured would be that much worse if I didn’t. I’m sorry, but sexual bullying isn’t a cultural tradition that deserves my respect.
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You are talking about respecting local people, but when reading your article I feel like you don’t respect me – the reader. You are being too harsh and it makes you come across as a real dick. You are the person I would not want to meet on my travels. It sounds like you think you are better than everyone else… and I think that’s more offensive than even the worst fashion/cultural/travel mistakes. Please don’t write any more articles like this. Real crap.
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‘But, just for a moment, imagine what your grandparents would say if rich, rowdy, foreigners – perhaps Russians, or Africans, or Eskimos – started pouring into your hometown wearing nothing but body paint, leather boots and thongs. Poor Grandma would wonder what the world was coming to, wouldn’t she.”
At which point you would promplty lecture her on being more accepting of other cultures….
I agree with showing common courtesy, hygiene and not acting like a spoiled rich arse, but I thought you’d be the last person to ask someone to conform to another persons culture and beliefs.
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AMEN! Thank you for this article. I was just in Luang Prabang, Laos and this was epidemic! The guest house I stayed actually placed a very nice laminated card on the bed at check-in asking their guests to please show respect to the locals by dressing appropriately and even went so far as to show what was appropriate and what was not. This gracious plea by the local management was largely ignored. The biggest offenders were a crowd of European and American Buddhists on a yoga retreat. They proffered a spiritual arrogance even unmatched to what I see living in Santa Fe and declared that clothes do not make the man. Their total lack of respect and grace was really offensive and even made me think about turning in my Buddha card.
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Good article. I gotta ask though, where did you get that picture of the Luang Prabang waterfall from? I know this sounds naive because it’s such a common picture but I have the exact same photo on my flickr account.
Pack light!
Matt
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Having been born and raised in very hot and humid Southeast Asia, i have to say that unless you’re in a rural or semi-urban area, it might be alright to wear that tank top. Major cities usually pay scant attention to tourists, but anything beyond the inner urban border anywhere in the world, it’s best to tone down the dressing.
Admittedly, tank tops, tubes, halters etc sometimes draw untoward attention from local men, so dressing down will be a safer option, not only for propriety’s sake.
But you have made a strong case against a certain type of backpacker who waltzs in backpack tow, skanky dress and way too much beer money. Travellers like that usually go abroad to find the best parties, get smashed and (unwittingly) pick up strange diseases. They’re also usually very young and fresh out of high school. Thankfully a large number of travellers are beginning to become culturally aware
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*backpack in tow
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Excellent points, Michaela! I think you’re completely right that it’s not so much the clothes (or lack thereof) that are offensive, but the attitude that goes along with them. The sense of, “I’m here to grace this hammock all day with my presence, and I want cold beers and stories of exoticism and modern amenities, too…” The sense of entitlement, in a word.
But I don’t think, obviously, that all travelers that dress…um, scantily…think that way. And I also think that if you take Tim’s argument and flip it around it looks shockingly conservative and right-wing (sorry, Tim, you know how I love to play devil’s advocate!)
For example: “imagine what your grandparents would say if rich, rowdy, foreigners – perhaps Russians, or Africans, or Eskimos – started pouring into your hometown wearing nothing but body paint, leather boots and thongs.”
Well, to be fair, I’m not sure what my grandma would say, but I would hope that the goal of travel is that people can exchange different cultural practices and values instead of trying to rapidly assimilate into wherever they’re traveling without giving any evidence of being outsiders. If we follow your logic here, then indigenous people in Mexico should not wear their traditional garb outside of their villages as it might be construed as shocking. And Africans or Russians or Papua New Guineans should be forced to change into Western clothing so as not to offend the locals in the U.S or Canada. Isn’t the point of cultural exchange and mutual tolerance lost here? And isn’t this, to some extent, a policy of forced assimilation?
To give another example: the huge debate in France a few years back about the use of the burka. Now, France is the premier example of forced assimilation. You can immigrate there, but you must become French. The burka law followed in this tradition–schools banned Muslim women from wearing burkas, saying it was against women’s rights and French law. This was lambasted as being a very right-wing policy.
So I think I have to respectfully disagree with you here. Although my grandma is probably firmly on your side.
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I agree, Tim. And I think that even in places where people consistently contend that dressing skimpily IS part of local culture (islands, in particular), I have a big problem with the assumption that you can just show up and prance around in a bikini. I used to live in Old San Juan, Puerto Rico, and was appalled by the number of tourists who’d come in off cruise ships and traipse around the streets in bikinis and flip flops (without any type of cover-up) and men who’d walk around without their shirts or shirts totally unbuttoned. Locals don’t do that–unless they’re at the beach. Take your clue from that- if you don’t see the locals doing that, why do you think it’s ok for you to do it?
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Haha, great post Tim. I don’t know how to reconcile this with my attachment to the universal, cultural-relativity-be-damned, destruction of sexual prudishness, but there must be a way!
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Absolutely! A relative asked me to escort her and her teenage daughter on their first trip to Thailand. Within 24 hours, I was mortified to be seen with them. They looked like a prostitute and a prostitute who did not know how to dress her age. You figure out which was which. I’ve have been aghast at how disrespectfully others dress in Buddhist countries for years. Suddenly there I was wandering around the zoo with the bim twins. I begged them to cover up, but got that same old “it’s my body, they can cover theirs if they choose” nonsense. Well, it’s their country, you’re just a guest. How would my relatives feel if a bunch of naked foreigners wandered into their house and hung out (literally) for awhile? I will never journey away from the Vegas strip with them again.
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Eva – I agree that forcing women to cover excessively (I’m thinking of the burka) is oppressive – but I hardly see how wearing a T-shirt that covers your shoulders, rather than a tank top is terribly oppressive.
I wholeheartedly agree with the statement about showering and using soap. I don’t understand why so many people use travel as an excuse to be completely disgusting and smelly. Millions of people around the world keep clean with just a bucket of water and a bar of soap, so you really have no excuse!
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Hey Cate–I don’t think Eva’s point was necessarily that forcing women to cover up is oppressive, but rather that the argument that women should cover up because they’re in a different culture is problematic.
Her quote about the burka was this:
“Many women in North America (rightly or wrongly) view the hijab or the abaya as a grotesque symbol of oppression — but we don’t force Saudi visitors to strip off into bikinis — because we respect their right to cultural difference.”
The point here is that the general argument about women needing to cover up, or causing problems by wearing skimpy clothes, tends to support a very patriarchal (and often oppressive, and sometimes dangerous) notion that women are inviting rapes or disrespect by dressing as they wish. I would argue that if women traveling in the U.S have the right to wear burkas, then why shouldn’t women in Europe or Southeast Asia have the right to wear a tank top?
Also, more often than not women are expected to wear long-sleeved shirts or pants for fear of sexual harassment. While I understand the reasoning behind this, I think it represents the sad lack of rights women have in many places and the tendency to blame women (she was inviting it!) for rapes or harassment.
Emily Hansen does a great job in this article of summing up what’s wrong with the idea that we should always try to assimilate to different cultural norms. You can check it out here: http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2009/04/01/where-to-draw-the-line-when-defending-cultural-norms/
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Thanks for all the comments everybody, really thoughtful perspectives. Michaela, I especially appreciate your note.
I agree with Sarah – Emily Hanson’s article published on BNT does a great job of exploring the flip side of this issue. If you’ve read this far down in the comments, it’s a must read:
http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2009/04/01/where-to-draw-the-line-when-defending-cultural-norms/
Matt, I don’t know where the Kuang Si photo came from. That community connection bit automatically goes into any article that I label “Laos”. I’ll ask around. We often use creative commons photos from flickr, but if that’s the case it should be attributed. Maybe it’s a coincidence? I’ve stood in that exact spot myself a few times in the last couple of years (and winced while bikini clad backpackers dove into the pool).
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I think all the comments about sexual repression in Asia, etc. show a clear lack of understanding of these societies.
It doesn’t automatically mean that women covering up suggests a culture of patriarchal and / or oppression. Sure, Asian societies might not be as ‘open’, ‘liberal’ and equal to women’s rights, but it doesn’t necessarily mean women are oppressed. And does dressing light really mean women now have freedom and equal rights?
There is also an assumption that women in SEA want to be dress down, in tank tops and shorts. But, really, do they? I live in Singapore, and even compared to relatively ‘liberal’ Asian cities such as HK and Taiwan, there is a clear difference in how women dress. And it has nothing to do with oppression – it would be disingenuous to suggest that women in these places are ‘oppressed’. It’s simply down to a difference in cultural norms.
The locals (women included) may accept how little you dress. But that doesn’t mean they are comfortable with it. There will always be norms about how you should wear in different situations, and to brush them off as signs of oppression, in my opinion, is clearly offensive.
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@Tim But locals don’t bother with skanky farang dressing. They raise their eyebrows, shake their heads and leave the tourists be. No one’s going to raise a ruckus over dressing because there’s a mutual understand that tourists.. well. They’re tourists.
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Oh my…Patterson gets a little sassy! I like it. The thing that is confusing me a little bit is the thai women who are married to/seeing farang…it would appear that many of them have license to wear dental floss as a bikini. Marrying a farang maybe allows you the dressing habits of a westerner?
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@thecat See above discussion. I think Sarah did a very nice job of clarifying — I wasn’t suggesting that women in more conservative areas are oppressed if they cover up, necessarily, but that in Western culture, covering up — for our own historical and not-so-historical reasons — is *widely viewed as oppressive*.
So on the one hand, you have a culture where dressing down gets you viewed as looking like a hooker, and on the other hand you have a culture where being told what to wear is viewed as a symbol of oppression. Is there no room for compromise, middle ground or mutual understanding? Or, because I’m a visitor, do I have to abandon my cultural norms entirely (and yes, it is culture/politics for me, not just fashion / wanting nice tan lines or whatever) and forcibly conform to the culture I’m visiting?
In my book, cultural respect is a two-way street. I would never expect someone visiting Canada to change their style of dress to match what surrounded them — nor would I tolerate them coming to my country and calling me a whore for the way I dress. When I visit their country, I can likewise respect their traditions without necessarily embracing them.
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Cultural relativism should not extend to basic freedoms. Either we believe in a person’s right to wear what they choose or we do not. Why are people so afraid of/hateful toward the body? I would not mind your naked eskimos (although being naked in an igloo doesn’t sound like much fun to me…) People should choose their dress for practical reasons (hiking boots for a hike, eg) not to pander to other people’s misanthropic terror of human flesh. And no, this does not lift the obligation on other people not to assault them.
In Saudi Arabia, it’s the culture for women to be covered head to foot. More than the culture, its the law. Does that mean Saudi women should have to cover up? In certain African tribes, it is the culture for the women to be topless. Does that mean any woman who visits the region is obliged to get her top off?
This is not me and my oppressive culture – clothing mores are prevalent in UK as elsewhere, just different mores. It is a bigger and better principle that says we don’t all have to dress alike – we can wear whatever the hell we like, because what we wear does no harm to anyone. I don’t demand that people respect me regardless of what I wear, but I do demand the right to wear it and not be harassed. Other people’s bad behaviour is not my responsibility.
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I read about a lot of people on this site want to really experience the cultures they visit. If you really want to experience, you need to fit in to a certain extent. One easy way to fit in is by dressing, to the extent possible, like the locals dress. If you’re in a culture where the clothes you typically wear are offensive, you shouldn’t wear them. You wouldn’t want to offend anyone, would you? It won’t hurt you to dress more modestly for a short while. It might even give you a better feel for the area you’re visiting. It will also show respect for the people who live there, rather than showing disrespect by dressing any way you see fit, without regard for their sensibilities. If you can’t respect the area you plan to go to, don’t go.
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Travellohr — let me ask you this: Are you offended when you see a woman wearing traditional African dress in New York City, or London, or Toronto? How about a Saudi woman in an abaya? Do you think tourists should have to strip off those traditional clothes and put on jeans and t-shirts to respect our culture? How about immigrants? Should they be obliged to fit in, too?
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Eva, I didn’t say I’m offended by the way people dress anywhere. Anyone can dress any way they want, in my opinion. But since people in many other cultures are offended by what they see as immodest dress, if you go somewhere where local dress dictates that you cover up more than you’re used to, it doesn’t hurt to do it. I’m not going to walk around in shorts and a tank top in a Muslim country where everyone else is covered. I’d feel uncomfortable, and I’d probably make a lot of other people feel uncomfortable too. Not many people where you or I are from care how modestly people dress. But since people in some other countries feel very strongly about it, I’m going to respect their feelings and dress appropriately for their culture.
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Travellohr- I respect your choice and see the reasoning behind it. But I think Eva’s point is that if we flip this argument around, and look at people from Africa or Southeast Asia or the Middle East traveling in Europe or the U.S., it has a very different tone to it. Should Saudi Arabian women have to strip down to shorts and t-shirts in order to be culturally appropriate in the U.S? They might look strange–and even offensive–to certain people, but does that mean they should have to let go of their culture to adapt and assimilate to American culture?
In my opinion, one of the goals of travel is to exchange beliefs and values. I think many people would heartily disagree with the notion that an indigenous Bolivian woman or an Afghani man should abandon his/her traditional dress when visiting the U.S, and throw on some gap jeans and a t-shirt so as not to stand out. Ideally, in my opinion, there should be mutually tolerance, so that both cultures can learn something about each other.
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I have a few thoughts on this. While I understand the argument that women (and men) should be able to dress however they want, especially if they don’t want to conform to fashion standards set by “patriarchal oppression,” I think it’s important to note that wearing a low-cut top doesn’t make you equal. There are unequal, patriarchal societies where women have worn far less, just as much as there are more equal societies where women traditionally wear more. The amount of clothing one wears is not necessarily inversely proportial to the degree of oppression one experiences.
While there have been a lot of comments here about, “Well, would you take offense if you saw a woman in America walking around in abaya?”, I think you fail to see the point. Imagine how you would feel if you got on a subway in New York and found yourself next to a group of tourists who were wearing this: http://www.artphotogallery.org/02/artphotogallery/database/peter_gasser_tr19.jpg.While you might not say anything out of politeness, most of you would probably feel a little uncomfortable. That doesn’t mean how they are dressing is bad or wrong, that it means they are sluts for bearing their breasts, or anything like that. We all understand, or should understand, that there is basic cultural difference in terms of what body parts people are comfortable seeing and what body parts people aren’t as comfortable seeing. That is why you are asked to dress modestly–that is to say, in a t-shirt and longer shorts rather than a tank top and daisy dukes–in other countries. It is an issue of respect for local custom and standards, whatever they may be based upon.
My final thought is this: when you are traveling, I hope you are not doing so solely for the purpose of delivering lectures on patriarchy, sexism, and oppression to locals and telling them how wrong they are for thinking or acting as they do. If you are traveling in order to experience a new culture or see new things, I would assume you are at least as interested in learning as you are in preaching sermons to any hapless local who happens to be made a little nervous by your bare shoulders or cleavage. If you DO want to learn or experience the culture more naturally, put on some clothes, because trust me, not wearing much will change how people treat you and how you experience things. And if you’re actually there on some political mission–which I’m doubtful any of you actually have been–you’ll probably find people are more receptive if your dressed in a way that elicits respect from other people. Even in America or Europe, it’s not considered appropriate to wear your tube top to the office.
So, really? There is no reason for you not to at the very least dig out the t-shirt and the longer shorts or skirts when you are visiting another country where cultural standards of fashion tend to be a little more modest. You aren’t there to deliver the Great Liberated Western Culture to the Ignorant, Backward Others. You aren’t there to act like a superior, condescending know-it-all. You are there to see, experience and learn. If you are so convinced that our way of doing things is better and that their culture is so wrong and backward, why are you even there? You could just as easily run around in tube tops, drink, and party in a place where that IS considered socially acceptable and never have to worry once about whether the people around you are living up to YOUR standards.
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Sarah, I agree that people need to have tolerance, and I surely don’t expect others to abandon their traditional dress when visiting here or anywhere. I don’t think, though, that people who are covered up offend anyone. It seems to be the opposite – that those who are not as covered up in cultures where modesty is important do offend sometimes.
As far as my remarks, I’ll leave it at this: I don’t have a problem with anyone dressing however they wish whereever they wish. Obviously, a lot of people feel strongly that they want to dress however they want whereever they go. That is fine. As far as myself, though, I feel more comfortable dressing close to the norm for the society I’m in.
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@ Katie: You make a very good point that people shouldn’t necessarily equate tank tops with liberation. However, I don’t think people here were doing that–many of the above points were about how in a lot of places people assume that women who don’t cover up deserve to be harassed and raped. So in this case, being able to wear a tube top without getting harassed, raped, and blamed for it does represent liberation.
And I agree that if people are traveling simply to prove something or to preach to locals about their own cultural superiority than they’re missing the point.
However, I don’t think the people who disagree with this article are going around in halter tops giving sermons to local women about how oppressed they are. The point here is not that a tank top = liberation and covering up = oppression, but rather that women (and people in general)–be they African women traveling in the U.S or American women traveling in Asia–should be able to dress according to their cultural values without necessarily having to adopt the values of the culture they’re visiting.
Just to try a thought experiment, let’s say the title of this article was:
“Take that damn burka off!”
And the arguments supporting it were:
A) Your burka makes people uncomfortable, as most people in the U.S/Europe do not wear them and some people even see them as signs of oppression.
B) In the U.S. and Europe, it is natural for women to show their faces and hair, and not doing so will illicit stares and disrespect.
C) Traveling in the U.S and Europe, you should leave behind your own values/dress codes and assimilate with the locals.
The article reads differently this way, no? My point here is not at all that travelers should go around preaching about superior value systems, but rather that people should not always have to dress or behave according to local cultural values.
It’s not so much rather covering up is good or bad, or oppressive or not, but rather that the argument behind why women should cover up in certain places is part of another, larger argument that people–be they travelers or immigrants–should always assimilate to their “host” cultures instead of displaying their own dress and culture.
Eva sums it up really well here:
“In my book, cultural respect is a two-way street. I would never expect someone visiting Canada to change their style of dress to match what surrounded them — nor would I tolerate them coming to my country and calling me a whore for the way I dress. When I visit their country, I can likewise respect their traditions without necessarily embracing them.”
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Well said, Kate. You put it much more eloquently than I could.
For me, it comes down to two words: Respect and Consideration. Unfortunately, it seems there are a few here that aren’t making that connection. They seem like such simple concepts- I find it hard to believe there are that many people that don’t understand them.
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Fried Toast-
Would you actually read the previous posts from the people who supposedly don’t understand respect and consideration? Can you actually pull out some quotes and examples from those posts showing a lack of respect and consideration before you make condescending and self-righteous statements like “I find it hard to believe that there are that many people that don’t understand them”?
That would be more helpful, thanks.
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Spot on, Kate!
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@Sarah, good point too. I can only speak as a migrant to a Western country, but having been brought up in a “westernized” city, i haven’t had much problems assimilating as my ethnic colleagues have. Multiculturalism in this country (Australia) has had a fraught, testy and sometimes very fragile relationship with the local community. People who dress different or eat different face difficult psychological barriers of acceptance, made worse when they cannot speak English properly.
Racism and xenophobia have only very recently become frowned upon (by recent i mean the last thirty years – it’s been a long journey to acceptance), and has now become a “normalized”/naturalized part of society, but only because of changing social norms brought about by consistent, impassioned activism. So have gender and sexual rights. Entrenched values are hard to change and they take time, so all the talk about patriarchy, sexism, feminism etc cannot shoved down their throats by a visitor. It’s rude, it’s patronizing. The idea of “choice” is also not a natural value but one that has developed since the Enlightenment. We must remember that these are modern day values that while good, cannot be, i repeat, coerced into non-Western societies. You are not a walking billboard of American values, especially as a tourist, because you’ll always be an outsider until you show the people that you’re committed to changing their culture.
And Sarah, no one’s forcing anyone to cover up their tank tops if they don’t want to, unless you’re in a highly volatile country (or unless you’re in Europe and wearing a burka
in which case you shouldn’t even be there. You have a choice to respect the local customs or to dress the way you prefer, but be prepared for frowns and silent unfavorable thoughts which you won’t know about anyway. Just like how my colleagues have adapted to the country they now call home.
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Point to note – the White Australia policy was abolished only in the mid-70s.
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Thanks for all the comments, everyone. Great discussion – keep it up.
And don’t be too hard on Fried Toast, Sarah. He’s a friend of mine
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J – I have to point out, we are talking about a lot more than “frowns and silent unfavorable thoughts” in plenty of countries, not all of which are “highly volatile.” Groping is quite common in India, and no one will help a woman who complains about it. So no, no one is forcing us to give up our t-shirts there, but there are social consequences to not doing so — and it’s that, more than the actual clothing itself, that feels oppressive. Women shouldn’t have to be afraid of being abused on the streets because of the way they’re dressed. Period.
I was offline for awhile, so thanks, Sarah, for responding so eloquently to Travellohr and Katie — I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what I’m trying to get at here, and (I hope!) you’ve clarified things beautifully.
Tim — Fried Toast’s comment was pretty dismissive/contemptuous of us and the points we’re trying to make. I think Sarah’s response was generous.
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@Eva My last point (addressed to Sarah) was in reference to Tim’s and Sarah’s opposing views on respectful dress code as a cultural norm, not to prevent sexual harassment. But my previous point noted that the only way to make a real difference is to challenge the system through social justice and activism, and that takes time. We’re covering a lot of ground about different issues now aren’t we? Tim’s post never mentioned anything about covering up to prevent pesky male attention if i am reading him correctly. Yes, you should not be subjected to unwanted behaviour, but if you are, and you storm into a police station dressing like a skank (by their standards), no one is going to take you seriously. I’m sorry, but that’s real life. You know why folks in Washington DC are decked up to their necks in business suits and ties? It’s respectable. Professional etiquette gives you credibility, professionalism tells people you are serious. If you want to change a bad cultural norm, you don’t do it by demanding equal respect about how you dress by screaming and shouting on the streets. You take on the system, and i don’t think dressing down will help your cause.
But i digress…
That said, you have a choice. You have a choice to dress how you want, what to eat (or not to), to learn the local language or not, to stay with your tour group or venture out. Sure, you have a choice, you’re a visitor, people understand that you’re here to take pictures and contribute to the tourist economy, but if you’re sincere about wanting to touch base with the local populace, then maybe it’s better to make the choice that shows you respect what they respect.
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I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I really, really believe that it’s possible to express respect for the local culture without entirely adopting its norms at the expense of your own, and that many local people can respect that in turn. I don’t think it’s a straight dichotomy between “tour group / tank top / contempt for the culture you’re visiting” and “covering up / learning the language / interacting with locals”. And for the most part, my travel experiences have borne that view out.
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Eva – at the expense of your own? Why is it so impossible not to wear a halter top? Why are you threatened by covering your shoulders? Throw on a tee shirt and get to know the locals. No one is asking you to wear a prom dress. Think what you will, but in Laos I watched the locals absolutely shut down around the skimpily-clad. There is something to be said for moving through this world with a little grace and part of that grace is honoring your hosts in their home.
You can’t enter a mosque or temple or cathedral or orthodox church anywhere in the world without covering your shoulders or knees -so let’s not pretend your being asked this for the first time. At my guest house in Laos it was obnoxious watching all these yoga bunnies thumping their nose and their ass-cheeks at the very kind and considerate appeal to wear a tee shirt and pants to the knee when out on the streets. To purposely disrespect that is elitist, arrogant, and smacks of colonialism.
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And, one more thing (directed more broadly, not just in reply to J) — a lot of people have dropped terms like “condescending” and “patronizing” on this thread to describe those of us who might feel uncomfortable covering up in deference to local customs — there have been references to shoving Western culture down locals’ throats, etc.
There’s something to that, if the visitor is preaching — but it seems to me there’s also a patronizing element in the idea that locals can’t comprehend Western dress except as an insult to their own way of life. It’s not intended that way, and I think as often as not it’s not taken that way — as Michaela pointed out way up in the top of the thread, many of these “traditional” societies are actually a lot more cosmopolitan and “worldly” (or whatever less obnoxious word you want to use, sorry, can’t think of a better one) than they are sometimes given credit for.
Here’s an example from Canada: a few years ago a controversy erupted about Sikh veterans in Canadian legion halls. It’s customary in Canada, as a sign of respect, to remove one’s hat in the legion hall — but of course it’s also customary, in the Sikh religion, not to remove one’s turban in public. Were the Sikhs intending to disrespect the sacrifices of past Canadian soldiers? Of course not. They don’t even view their turbans as “hats” in the same way a Yankees ball cap is. Some people were offended nonetheless — but, in the end, the majority of people felt that those who were offended, and wanted to force the Sikhs to remove their “hats” or ban them, were in the wrong.
I think there are plenty of local people, in South East Asia or elsewhere, that fall into this second group: they understand that my style of dress doesn’t hold the same cultural meaning or intent as a Cambodian girl, say, doing the same, and thus don’t take it as a mark of disrespect. And I think there’s something vaguely off about the comments that appear to suggest that locals can’t (or won’t) get their heads around that nuance.
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TR – Read the thread. I’ve already made it clear that I always respect the rules in a house of worship, of any kind. I’ve also made it clear, I think, why it’s important to me to have the right to wear what I want outside of a church or temple — it’s not for the love of halter tops, but because of the long and ongoing history of women (and their bodies, and their clothing) being controlled by men. (And you’ll note, these clothing restrictions are almost always uniquely aimed at women, not at both genders.)
You know, the most troubling thing about this thread is the sexism that’s creeping in to a lot of the comments. TR’s reference to “yoga bunnies” is only the latest. It’s the set of assumptions that go with a particular style of dress (so far in this thread I’ve seen references to skanks and hookers a few times) that is so problematic. For what it’s worth, I don’t actually walk around — in Asia or North America — in halter tops and short shorts. But I will always defend the right of women to do so without being judged as whores or bimbos.
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Oh Tim…
I did giggle that we have such different journalistic opinions on this issue. I definitely think that the fashion police should be called on account of the stinky dreadlocks and hangy tank tops (oh, the hippie unform- butt cracks and sailor pants be damned), but I definitely won’t call them a cultural faux paux.
This might be useful information- when I was working in Thailand, one of the Thai teachers told me that until Westerners came, Thai women were running around in shoulder-exposing sarongs and short hair. It was only when one of the Kings started dating a Westerner that “covering up” became seen in Thailand as more feminine, along with long hair, because he was quite turned-on to this lady and her culture, thus imposing many of its hallmarks on the rest of Thailand, forks and spoons for example. And so the trend towards “modesty” began. I can not 100 percent confirm this information, but there may well have been some truth in her story- more importantly, it brings about the question: When we define something as being part of someone’s culture, at which point, and by whom, was the practice enacted? And culture changes all the time. I have seen a great many Thai women wearing far less clothing than I ever did and they were not prostitutes. At work, I was often expected to dress what I call “more Thai than Thai”. One hint of exposed flesh and I threatened to throw the administrative masses into an uproar, earning me the title of “disrespectfully-dressed Westerner”.
So I think Eva and Sarah make some valid points. Often these arguments about “appriopriate clothing” fall unfairly upon women to negotiate- the female body exposed is always seen as a threat to moral decency. As I mention in my article, it is quite a complicated issue. But thanks for getting the discussion going! This of course, is the point of both of our articles.
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@ TR-
“Eva – at the expense of your own? Why is it so impossible not to wear a halter top? Why are you threatened by covering your shoulders?”
Would you ask this to an African woman in an elaborate headdress and costume, who is eliciting uncomfortable and maybe disrespectful stares from Americans on a bus in Columbus, Ohio? Would you ask,
“Why is it impossible not to put on a pair of jeans and show your hair? Why are you threatened by putting on gym shoes?”
Or would you ask a Quechua Indian, “Why can’t you take off that ridiculous skirt? Why are you so afraid of putting on a pair of khakis?”
I know that tank tops and indigenous dresses aren’t the same thing and don’t have the same historical weight, but I do think they are both a reflection of culture and both an indigenous Bolivian woman and a North American woman should be able to dress according to their culture without being called “skanks” or looked down upon or asked to please change and assimilate to wherever they’re traveling.
First off, let me say that I don’t think Eva even wears halter tops and mini skirts at home or abroad, and nor do I, but as Eva said I’ll continue defending the rights of women to do so without being accosted.
Secondly, I think Eva made a great point that people are capable of more tolerance, and more cultural exchange, than a lot of posts on this thread are giving them credit for. To continue in this vein, I’ll ask–why is it that travelers assume that Americans or Europeans are totally capable of tolerating cultural differences and cultural plurality, whereas people in Asia or the Middle East are not capable of doing the same?
I think many travelers assume that one of the goals of traveling is to learn more about other cultures so as to create mutual understanding. Yet many arguments in this thread assume that this understanding is only really possible for Europeans and Americans, who are they only ones capable of respecting another culture’s norms. Other cultures, many of these arguments seem to assume, should not have to be asked to respect different cultural norms, or to participate in this mutual exchange and understanding.
@ J – This statement makes my point entirely about why sometimes tank tops do represent liberation:
“Yes, you should not be subjected to unwanted behaviour, but if you are, and you storm into a police station dressing like a skank (by their standards), no one is going to take you seriously.”
Why in the world should I not be taken seriously if I enter a police station in a mini skirt and tank top? What basis is that for not taking me seriously? Because I dressed like a “skank” so I deserve to be harassed, raped, and treated like a “skank?” This is why so many women are blamed for the crimes committed against them. This is the exact same logic that says, “if you were wearing a mini skirt, you deserved–or at least asked–to get raped.” In fact, this statement almost exactly mirrors what the Cardinal of the Church of Guadalajara said in Mexico when he announced that mini skirts, not machismo, were the root of rape.
As for your point about professionalism, obviously particular environments demand a suit and tie and “professional” dress. However, these are strictly regulated and specific environments, not the street or the city or country in general, and I don’t think most people—even bankers or stockbrokers or heads of NGOs–go wandering the streets most of the time in a suit and tie. I also don’t agree that one cannot create change without a) working within the system and b) dressing professionally.
In my opinion, one of the great things about travel is that it allows people to create change–in the form of dialogue and exchanges of opinions and values and ideas–without having to dress up in a suit and tie and make government appeals.
Also, what a one-dimensional and sad world it would be if only people who dressed “professionally” were taken seriously. Recently 2,500 Triqui Indians dressed in bright red, one piece dresses took to the streets in Oaxaca to ask for more aid for their communities, and the government took them seriously. Peasants in Bolivia, dressed in leather sandals and second-hand t-shirts from U.S thrift stores, managed to win back control of their water supply from a French corporation. There are plenty of other examples of people who have managed to create change without having to put on a suit and tie.
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Hey now – boys can be bunnies too and usually the worst offenders. My recent frustrations are not directed at any particular sex.
And many places in Asia – especially places like Luang Prabang in Laos view their entire city as a temple. There are monks at every turn, spirit houses every few feet, and people worshipping on every street corner So the same prevailing wisdom about temple dress should easily apply to similar places.
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I am sorry Admin but your comparing apples to oranges and missing the point. In NYC we could care less what someone is wearing and expectations are up to personal choice and comfort. In Luang Prabang you are given a note at check-in asking you to please adhere to a local dress code – which is certainly not asking much more than to wear a tee shirt. There are beautifully carved signs all over town asking tourists, in the nicest, kindest way, to please respect the locals in the way you dress by making tiny, insignificant changes that mean a lot to the locals. Can you not see the difference? Is anyone handing the African on the bus a letter from the City of New York officially asking her to please not wear the head dress? No. Why would you even go there?
In the USA – when the sign says “no shoes, no shirt, no service” do you go in anyway because its your culture to go barefoot – no, you respect the wish of the establishment. It is very much the same thing.
Your changing the debate that was proposed by the author. The debate does not question your right to express yourself in any type of clothes you want. You have that right – you even get that right in places like Laos. No one is trying to take that away from you. The debate asks – is it bad manners to disregard the suggested dress code – yes, it is bad manners and it is rude. But no one is telling you cannot. Just asking you to reconsider. How hard is that? If it goes against the grain of your personal morality, for whatever reason, then don’t wear a tee-shirt. I am all for you. But don’t pretend that you’re not being rude – that’s what I am asking.
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@Admin I was talking about social justice and the system, was that not clear? I agree that women or any helpless victim should deserve the respect due them at the police station, but given the machismo culture of many developing countries, there is a higher chance of being brusquely brushed aside than taken seriously. I’m stating real life. Facts. It’s happened to many women, and that’s a terrible terrible thing for anyone to experience. My point is, we can argue about how unfair life is and how women should not be subjected to harrowing attitudes. Life sucks, get a grip. What do you do? Change the system. How do you do that? You fight it at the level of policy and law. (After 3 years in development studies i realize how fruitless learning about poverty, gender et al are, without changes in policy, law and enforcement.) Those who wander the streets? They’re aid and social workers. A different job scope but no less important – and they do go to meetings in nicely pressed shirts, trust me.
Note that the Indians and peasants are politicized (if not political) groups probably supported by social justice activists cum law makers. If 4000 women in halters walked the streets in Mexico, it’s political.@TR The signs are in place everywhere but no one seems to see them. I understand your frustration!
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Yeah we totally digressed.. how did we end up talking about patriarchal oppression and liberation?
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The reaction to being told how and what to dress depends on the situation, we all know this.I hate being told how to dress and would usually tell someone to take a flying leap.But I also know when I should say this and when to accept the rules,because I don’t know the underlying reasons. In SE Asia culture plays a strong role in dress code, not just for women but also for men. The cultures within this region are old and complex. To understand the level of complexity would take me years.Time I do not have, so instead I opt for the next best thing. To follow basic codes and rules.
I have no problems dealing with scantily clad women in my own country – some by right, should be arrested by the fashion police.Whenever I travel to SE Asia, an area entrenched in buddhism and conservatism, I respect their dress codes for many reasons. First I hate being bitten by annoying insects, secondly malaria pills make my skin oversensitive to the sun, and thirdly from past experiences, I find I get more information and help from locals who are at ease with my attire (covered appropriately). I’m not wandering around in a shroud or Burka, just covered arms and shoulders and legs. It has nothing to do with oppression but everything to do with respect.I respect them and in return they respect me, and I get what I want with little fuss. As traveller’s it should be evident. We travel to learn and understand new cultures. Although the reality seems different;many travel to have fun and unknowingly push their mores and beliefs onto other cultures.When visitors come to my own country (NZ) they have rules they have to follow. Maybe it is not dress rules, but there are others:smoking in public and spitting are two I can think of. Singapore has rules galore, no loitering, no eating and drinking in the metro, the list goes on. Devout catholic countries have rules in their churches,women should cover thy shoulders.Rules are everywhere as some have alluded to in this debate. It just depends on how mature you are at letting go of your pride and accepting.
Sometimes we become so worked up in the topic that we forget about the actual reason for the request in the first place..Why would a local person from a small inland tribe in Laos want to know about oppression and patriarchal society when they are struggling to put food on the table,fight infection, and find clean drinking water .They probably don’t like the idea of tourists coming to their village poking cameras in their faces and homes, interrupting their daily life, partially embarrassed about their poverty. But all they can think of is the revenue. All they ask in return is that you respect their way of life and their devotion to their faith. Not just women but also men. How difficult is it to follow their simple requests?↵ -
“Hey now – boys can be bunnies too and usually the worst offenders.”
Really? You get a lot of dudes in halter tops and short skirts in Luang Prabang, TR? Come on. Don’t pretend this whole discussion hasn’t been about women.
Look, someone up above (Cate?) said that different “please cover up” scenarios elicit different responses. TR, I haven’t been to Luang Prabang but some polite, friendly signage sounds like the kind of thing that would generate a positive response, from me at least.
What doesn’t generate a positive response? A bunch of men telling me to put some damn clothes on because I look like a hooker. Can’t you guys see that when you go on about skanks and whores you’re just proving our argument for us? There’s a big difference between “I’d really appreciate it if you cover your shoulders” and “Women who don’t cover their shoulders are useless skanks out to insult and disrespect everybody.” You really can’t see the distinction? You really don’t get what we’re objecting to here?
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Tim, great article!
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